[rainbow]

Went and had a look a bizarre on sat and it is looking a bit worse for wear  It would be quite easy for me to glue along line in pic above, stopping the flexing and to prolong the life of flake and more importantly the one above. Just wanted some feedback from you guys if I should do it or just leave it be.

In the high lighted pic below I've rightly or wrongly dabbed superglue with towel to prevent more erosion and to lock first layer of crystals. Tried it else where in valley and this method works pretty well.

Hit me with your thoughts on gluing flake, as depending on what people think, might do it on Tues if I get chance. Thanks

[a dense loner]

i would glue it, someone will moan but that's life. what's the worst that can happen? it'll fall off anyway

[fu.gu]

I don't normally like to see glued holds as everything's better when it's totally natural. However I think in this case, as Bizarre is pretty much a standalone problem it would be nice to preserve it. It is, as you say, very worse for ware at the moment.

[Eddies]

The flake looks terrible all close up like that 
Ive wanted to see this glued up for a while, get it done i say, its dry enough.

[hairich]

tried this last sunday.the flake has a lot of movement.if it gets any ice forming behind it next winter it would be curtains for it i think.i say do it but make a good job.im sure you would anyway.

[monkey boy]

This flake was wobbley when i did this a few years ago. We actually had one of us pressing the flake against the wall while the other tried the problem. i think its a cool little problem so get it glued!

[mini]

tried this last sunday.the flake has a lot of movement.if it gets any ice forming behind it next winter it would be curtains for it i think.i say do it but make a good job.im sure you would anyway.

I walked past ya I think, there were a good group of you trying it?? Anyone do it, looked like one of ya were getting very close.

Rainbow, I looked at this today, I somehow think the superglue aint gonna last, it is broken through to the underlying stone already! I'll pm you with a suggestion.

[stom]

Tried this last week.  Its a really good problem a certainly deserves to be glued up (the flake feels incredibly flexy with my 12.5stone hung off it!).  Just make sure it's done well - being right by the path it will be obvious to non climbing passers by if done badly.

I walked past ya I think, there were a good group of you trying it?? Anyone do it, looked like one of ya were getting very close.

No we all failed on the final slap!  It certainly is a heartbraker.....

[Kingy]

Aye get it glued, you won't regret it. Perhaps proper sika rather than superglue I would say as it would be more long-lasting. i glued the Pill Box hold and that seemed the right thing to do, preserved the problem for future generations etc.

[dave]

on something like this you also need to do something to seal the sandy broken surface rock too to stop it crumbling - sika up that back will stop the whole thing breaking off but won't address the surface deterioration.

[Fultonius]

What about the french polish trick - would that work?

[dave]

what, getting invaded by germany?

[Bonjoy]

IMO french polish or brick hardener are less effective and more unsightly than superglue (check out Bridestones and Bowden for evidence). Superglue is more of a pain to apply properly but if done right can produce a good solid surface layer without too much visible evidence or residual greasyness. You need to use quite a lot so that it soaks in well, you need to cover the entire vulnerable area and you need to make sure you keep dabbing off the excess with a rag so that a surface polish doesn't occur. Obviously some super sandy rock is beyond fixing but that hold looks salvageable.
As for stopping it breaking off, the only long term solution is to break it off pre-emptively, clean all the dirt and woodlice off the back and stick it back on again with a good quality gun resin. If done carefully this will give a permanent and near invisible repair, if done badly it may fuck the problem royally! I dare say some people might object to this approach, it's a tricky subject. I have done this sort of fix on limestone sport routes and one limestone boulder prob, but have thankfully never had to consider it on sandstone/grit. You could put a bead of resin around the back but this will only last a few years and is pretty unsightly, especially if you put on a big enough bead to last. Pouring glue into the crack is totally ineffective IMO.

[account_inactive]

I remember that Garry Wickham or Southern Sandstone fame painted up the rock with some stuff.  I'm sure Jasper or Ben P will be along with the details and a boring recollection of some of the most underrated choss in the country etc etc

[rainbow]

Thanks for your feedback. With regards the shelf, I'm going to seek advice from someone who has to sorted out some of the badly effected problems around roaches area to try and find a more permanent solution.

As for stopping it breaking off, the only long term solution is to break it off pre-emptively, clean all the dirt and woodlice off the back and stick it back on again with a good quality gun resin. If done carefully this will give a permanent and near invisible repair, if done badly it may fuck the problem royally! I dare say some people might object to this approach, it's a tricky subject. I have done this sort of fix on limestone sport routes and one limestone boulder prob, but have thankfully never had to consider it on sandstone/grit. You could put a bead of resin around the back but this will only last a few years and is pretty unsightly, especially if you put on a big enough bead to last. Pouring glue into the crack is totally ineffective IMO.

I totally I agree with you, Unfortunately knowing how crumbly the rock is underneath I would say getting the flake off in one piece would be virtually impossible and I haven't got the balls to try. I'm going to take glue gun up there tomorrow have another look go for a walk and ponder wether to apply some to the side of flake. If I do might get some sand from nearby crags and sprinkle on top of glue to at least try and camouflage it.

Bizarre means quite a lot to me, So I feel its my responsibility to do something. At the end of day, I just don't want to look like a dick.

[a dense loner]

you're calling yourself rainbow. how much more of a dick can you look?

note. showing photo's of me at this stage will not be funny

[account_inactive]

Ahem 

[rainbow]

you're calling yourself rainbow. how much more of a dick can you look?

How True,

Well, felt right to give it a go. Aesthetically I'm please with the result, when hardened hope the sand has stuck to glue. Before and After shots below. Time will tell if it was worth it.

[dave k]

Good effort on your part. Lets hope it works. It is definitely one of those holds that needs to be treated with care.

 

[Eddies]

It looks well, nice one. What glue did you use?

[fashionguru]

Good job there.

Im sure some will take offence but I think youve done a good job.

If it was me I would also use some stone repair (brick hardner I think some one called it) this will then penatrate and help make the rock more solid.

JB said to use super glue instead of this but (and its my own thoughts) this would create a glassy finish to the hold (please tell me if Im wrong JB but that is my experience)

Any way good job and lets hope it works.

Great problem

Tony S

[dave]

in my experience superglue done properly doesn't give a glassy finish.

[Jaspersharpe]

I remember that Garry Wickham or Southern Sandstone fame painted up the rock with some stuff.  I'm sure Jasper or Ben P will be along with the details and a boring recollection of some of the most underrated choss in the country etc etc

I missed that you cunt. 

You're right it was some sort of furniture polish stuff. No idea what exactly but it worked a treat and seemed to last well. This is totally unhelpful and redundant now the thing's been fixed I do realise.........

[Bonjoy]

As mentioned before superglue only leaves a glassy finish if applied heavily without dabbing off the excess. If you apply and then use a ragg to soak up the stuff left on top it gives a good clear repair with little friction loss (comparable or better than any other solution i've seen used)

[uptown]

Looks to be a suitable repair, but why all this talk of superglue and furniture polish. We must have moved on now from the bodge it days when folk just used whatever they could rob from their access company.
Try professional stabilising solution - it does exactly what it says on the tub. There was a reason I didn't superglue my sandstone window mullions and jambs.....

The boy is on his money concerning cleaning away those woodlice though.

[measles23]

Saw it in the flesh tonight - had to do a double-take to figure out which bit was glued.. Looks very good Stuart, have a wad for being the guardian of the churnet.

[measles23]

I take that back - I'm too new to wad - can someone else do it for me? You know he deserves it..

[rainbow]

What glue did you use?

Used this, but the 390 type.

http://www.tooled-up.com/ShowImage.aspx?Type=3&File=FCHFISP380C.jpg&Man=FCH1&Size=500

Collected some sand off the top of cottage and bigger grains from buttress right of Bizarre and just kept throwing sand at the flake then blowing it off. Fingers crossed. On a lighter note, looking at how far right all the chalk is I'm sure we must have Left hand & Right hand variations on this. Didn't use sandy ledge for hands or feet. I even finished left of all the chalk on last move.

[Duma]

measles - done.

[Bonjoy]

Looks to be a suitable repair, but why all this talk of superglue and furniture polish. We must have moved on now from the bodge it days when folk just used whatever they could rob from their access company.
Try professional stabilising solution - it does exactly what it says on the tub. There was a reason I didn't superglue my sandstone window mullions and jambs.....

The boy is on his money concerning cleaning away those woodlice though.

I have a tin of rock stabiliser but personally think Superglue does a better (stronger) job. Super glue creates silicon bonds, which are relatively similar to the natural bonding in sandstone/grit as far as I can gather. It certainly gives clean and long lasting results(6 years and counting on some repairs). Choosing this way is not about bodging or using cheap/available materials, it's just a case of going with what I've tried and found to be most effective.

[dave k]

It looked to me (a few weeks back) like someone had been trying to climb a problem from the same start hold but up rightwards. There appears to be a new scar on the face where small hold might have been. Looks pretty impossible in its current state.

[uptown]

Looks to be a suitable repair, but why all this talk of superglue and furniture polish. We must have moved on now from the bodge it days when folk just used whatever they could rob from their access company.
Try professional stabilising solution - it does exactly what it says on the tub. There was a reason I didn't superglue my sandstone window mullions and jambs.....

The boy is on his money concerning cleaning away those woodlice though.

I have a tin of rock stabiliser but personally think Superglue does a better (stronger) job. Super glue creates silicon bonds, which are relatively similar to the natural bonding in sandstone/grit as far as I can gather. It certainly gives clean and long lasting results(6 years and counting on some repairs). Choosing this way is not about bodging or using cheap/available materials, it's just a case of going with what I've tried and found to be most effective.

I was making a general observation on the slapdash nature of UK rock repairs Jon, I think your repairs and the one Rainbow has done seem good to be honest though I haven't looked close up.
In the brief history of uptown bloddering more and more problems (including some of my own) have been shot by burly blodderers and botched repairs.
I guess that the solution to stabilisation needs SCIENCE and a CONSISTENT approach. Maybe the BMC should or could become involved to help preserve some classics for the future generations? Their blodderers countryside code makes no mention of retaining broken grips or of the SOP required to reinstate them. (Owners of the Faze action pebble or Crazy legs crimp can own up now and I'll repair them...)
Superglue is a cyanoacrylate, not a silicon bond, and as such has a very poor shear strength. A highly penetrative resinous solution will surely consolidate better, rather than just forming a barrier? Next tub I buy will be this...

I like their ethos.

[GCW]

botched repairs

I think this is an important point.  It may well be the case that the actual sealant used is less important than how the repair is done.  Some moron splashing gallons of stone seal on will make a mess whatever brand they use.

I've repaired crumbling footholds in various dirty Lancs quarries, and for small areas I use superglue and a dab cloth.  It's always worked for me and the holds aren't glassy.

This maybe needs looking at more carefully and a scientific approach may give an idea which sealer is best.  However, rock varies so much there probably isn't a single correct approach.

I think the bottom line is, if you don't know what you're doing.... don't.

[uptown]

It may well be the case that the actual sealant used is less important than how the repair is done.  Some moron splashing gallons of stone seal on will make a mess whatever brand they use.

Agreed, a good workman with poor tools can still produce a superior finish.

This maybe needs looking at more carefully and a scientific approach may give an idea which sealer is best.  However, rock varies so much there probably isn't a single correct approach.

Wikipedia has superglue down as a climbers best friend to repair fingertips, it makes no mention of rock repair. If a builder turned up to consolidate my house stonework with superglue, I'd be calling rogue traders.

I think the bottom line is, if you don't know what you're doing.... don't.

This is the critical point here - why not have designated repairers per region - JB in that 'Peaks' zone, Rainbow in the stix, Lank for the quarries? Of course I'd need to test you all, and see your portfolio of works to issue your level 3s...

[GCW]

I use superglue for split tips too.  After all, it was kinda developed for wounds in the battle field.

As you say, superglue has a poor shear strength (albeit far better than araldite) when gluing two things together.  I would expect the fact it soaks into the softer rocks would mean it has a hardening effect, which is less reliant on sheer strength.  But we don't really know, it's all anecdotal.  I certainly wouldn't advocate gluing holds back on with superglue.

Having a dedicated person for repairs is a fair idea, however it's often a difficult decision (hence the origins of this thread) and it shouldn't really be put upon one person to make these decisions.  It's great to have people that have experience of hold repair give advice though.  I'd rather people came along here and asked opinions, rather than banging on with a repair that will be shit.

The other thing is that none of these repairs are permanent.  It needs vigilance and hold surveillance, a hold screening program if you like.  It's better to do a small touch up early, than a big salvage job late.

But let's not forget that many a time a bit of common sense may have reduced the risk of hold damage.  The dirty boot, bicycle feet brigade may need a word in their shell likes in order to prevent another Kebs.



EDIT:

Just looked at the composition of your Sandtex, Andy.  There's also a water based version, I'm not sure which would be best for treating rocks.

Composition
Pigment: None.
Resin: Epoxy ester, hydrocarbon
Solvent: Dearomatised White Spirit.

[GCW]

The water based version appears to be acrylic polymer.

Useful search function for Akzo stuff here, gives the tech data on their stuff.


EDIT:  I've e-mailed Akzo for more information on these products for our requirements, although what they say I have no clue

[Bonjoy]

UTG - Sorry, yes your right, Superglue doesn't have silicon bonds. It was the Stoneseal stuff i've used which had that on the tin. That stuff was good for treating larger areas of sandyness as you could apply larger quantities, but the result didn't seem as durable as good old SG.
I'm only going on the results of my own work. As I said I've used SG on various sandy footholds over the years and in all cases it has left a non-sandy surface which has not deteriorated further and without leaving much of a trace that anything has been applied. Chemistry aside that's good enough for me. Glad you've also found something effective. I'm sure both are better than the nasty greasy stuff slopped all over Bowden!

[rainbow]

Sorry guy's, Its not to plan.  Had a look yesterday. Because the whole flake system and sandy ledge is linked there was not enough surface contact between resin and opposing rock to stop it flexing. I may need to apply a bead of resin down whole flake to prevent that. Don't intend to try this for a while as I'll try and experiment with bits of rock I find laying around to try and recreate a flexing flake!! If anyone objects just let me know and I'll leave it as it is. Thumbs up to Bonjoy & Mini for help and advice.

Stuart

[Monolith]

note. showing photo's of me at this stage will not be funny

I've never seen a photo of you that isn't funny.

[rainbow]

I'm pretty certain I've solved the problem. Went up there late Thurs eve spent quite a bit of time digging out the loose rock and soil from behind the whole flake system with cocktail sticks. Then fill some syringes up with the resin and injected the resin behind the flake. Then camouflaged it with sand/crystals as before. Had a look Fri afternoon and no matter how hard I pulled there was no flexing at all. If any one goes up that way in the next couple of days see what you think. The starting holds are a bit more open handed now, but that's a small price to pay for pulling on solid holds.