[Charles]

Did a power endurance session today, the first of a 3/4 week cycle.

While I'm in this cycle I want to supplement it with fingerboarding for finger strength and lock-off strength.

Will doing a fingerboard session the day after a power endurance session lessen the effects of the PE session at all? I ask because I've read that you should always train stamina the day after bouldering and I'm not sure if that applies to power endurance too.

[joswald]

I read an article/bit by Gresham somewhere saying train strength first.
James

[dobbin]

I agree - thats certainly the wisdom I've always been told.

[abarro81]

I usually try to put PE stuff the day before a rest day, since it has a habit of leaving my forearms knackered the next day.. I'd certainly struggle/fail to do maximal hangs the next day.

[Charles]

Right, clear consensus then! I'll rest today and then fingerboard Thursday, and another power endurance session on Friday. Train train train!

[dave]

I thought the thing about doing strength before stamina related to doing stuff within same session. If you're going seperate sessions on consecutive days with clearly a devent rest between then i doubt its an issue. if you're so wrecked after a session that you can't fingerboard the day after then you were probably overdoing it.

[abarro81]

if you're so wrecked after a session that you can't fingerboard the day after then you were probably overdoing it.

I'm not convinced about that for PE. There's no way I could do hard deadhangs the day after a good PE session, repeaters maybe but maximal stuff i'd be too knackered for. This aint power training - if you're not getting boxed it's not gonna help (surely?)

[dave]

the wisdom i'd always heard with training was stop while you're still feeling reasonably strong (presumably so the recovery don't overwrite the benefits), which doesn't seem to tie in with being unable to deadhang 24 hours later.

[abarro81]

I've always heard that in relation to power/strength work.. but I fail to see how you're going to get good at 20-80 move routes where you fall off due to pump without getting really pumped.. and then i'm usually too sore the next day to be really strong. Repeaters maybe, recruitment hangs no..

Anacdotally, amongst my friends the ones who are the fittest are the ones who often wreck themselves whilst the strongest are the ones who stop strong etc..

[dave]

if you're getting pumped then surely by deffinition its not power endurance, its stamina work. power endurance is more like 8-18 moves.

[galpinos]

Repeaters maybe, recruitment hangs no..

Slightly off topic, what are repeaters?

[Jaspersharpe]

http://www.beastmaker.co.uk/Grip-article.htm

[richdraws]

There are some murmurings that athletic conditioning has gone too far in the direction or recruitment and nervous training for the past 20 years. I think there may be more talk of training for muscular size soon, and hopefully more studies. I for one would be happy to sport a pair of forearms like Fred Nicole. Anyway, just to say that you could probably train for muscle gain after an endurance session. Unfortunately it would probably mean more rest days, which is just plain boring.

[galpinos]

Cheers Jasper.

[Charles]

if you're getting pumped then surely by deffinition its not power endurance, its stamina work. power endurance is more like 8-18 moves.

In one of the School Room articles on the Moon site theres a 'table of pump', 5 different levels and it puts power endurance at 2-3 if I recall (I can't get on the Moon site for some reason at the moment). My session was 7 repeats of a 6c circuit on the Works' Training Board, 30 moves long with 4.5 mins rest in between each repeat. This maintains the 'correct' level of pump. I stopped when I failed to complete a repeat (2/3 round the 7th lap, fingers just uncurled on a fingerjug as I watched on helplessly!)

 I do feel quite knackered today, particularly in the forearms, but I reckon I could do a good hour of deadhangs.

As an aside, I'm amazed and really pleased that I managed 6 and a bit laps on the circuit as I haven't done anything longer than 8 moves since some routes at Malham last April!

[Paul B]

I've always heard that in relation to power/strength work.. but I fail to see how you're going to get good at 20-80 move routes where you fall off due to pump without getting really pumped.. and then i'm usually too sore the next day to be really strong. Repeaters maybe, recruitment hangs no..

Anacdotally, amongst my friends the ones who are the fittest are the ones who often wreck themselves whilst the strongest are the ones who stop strong etc..

maybe talk to Stu Littlefair about this as he had the knowledge on some interesting Spanish studies.

Two groups, one does standard circuits and getting boxed, other does really really easy stuff for hours never getting pumped.

Second group sees biggest improvement in fitness.

[abarro81]

Isn't that just group 2 going capillarising? Which would be likely to get them good at full on stamina but not when you can't stop and shake? Or does group 2 also end up better at, say, 20 move intense stuff too? Please say it aint so, I get bored enough doing SACC a couple of times per week, let along finding out I should be doing more!

[Paul B]

You'd have to ask Stu about that one....

[Three Nine]

Why not just do your recruitment hangs before a PE endurance session on the same day? Seems the easiest thing to do. Today i did 30 min maximal hangs in the am and am going to the wall for routes this pm, this way neither session interferes with the other which would be the case if i did it the other way round!

[Charles]

What is SACC?

Oh and http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Neil_Greshams_Guide_to_Interval_Training_211.html
"Training to fail is failing to train."

Although this was written in 2004 and training methods may have advanced since then.

Why not just do your recruitment hangs before a PE endurance session on the same day? Seems the easiest thing to do. Today i did 30 min maximal hangs in the am and am going to the wall for routes this pm, this way neither session interferes with the other which would be the case if i did it the other way round!

This would seem to be the logical solution.

[abarro81]

"until, at the end, it will be all you can do to squeeze out that final interval" from your same quoted article.

SACC is capilarisation - 20+ minutes of traversing/climibng where you're not getting totaly pumped but you can feel you're doing something. It's for stamina.. but is damn boring at the wall.

[Charles]

Fair enough, I knew I shouldn't have linked to the article, much easier to twist quotations to suit my needs!

What I mean is, paraphrasing Gresham probably, burning out straight away is not going to help train endurance of any sort. You need to maximise the time spent performing at the appropriate intensity. So while you still train until you fail, you train at a level where it takes a long time to fail.

I think I'm probably just repeating what everyone knows now. And in answer to my original question, I half heartedly played on the fingerboard today but arms were knackered so no go!

Abarro81: I'm training for a sport climbing trip so I'll probably try out SACC, do you rest at all on jugs? Or just continuous climbing? Btw, I recognised you're profile on UKC, I'm Toby's mate Charlie, we were at the Matrix the other day.

[abarro81]

For SACC I end up shaking on jugs quite a lot, if only to break up the traversing. I doubt it matters whether you do or don't - the point is that you've got a very gentle pump but nothing major, building all 'dem nice capillaries to carry blood to your forearms and crap away from them. I often just use it as an extended warm down at the end of a session. It also gets called ARC sometimes, and is talked about in 'self coached climber' as well if you've got the book.
http://www.planetfear.com/articles/Neil_Greshams_Guide_to_SACC_Training_210.html gives you some info.

No doubt we'll catch up either at the matrix or on the bus to burbage once the exams are done (or at least once mine and toby's are since you didn't seem to have many!)

[account_inactive]

SACC is what people normally call ARC

The order of elements within a session (As Dobbin rightly said power/pe/stamina) relate to full body exercise rather than deadhanging a fingerboard.  This would change if you started doing repeaters or adding lock-offs whilst hanging. The reason for this is that the majority of gains on fingerboard are neurological rather than muscle based. I'd also be tempted to say that you would be unlikely to max out all grip types whilst climbing

I'm really tired so none of this might make any sense.  I'll post again in the morning with some links and a better explanation

[abarro81]

So do you think it would be better to do recruitment hangs than hypertrophy/repeater stuff if you'e a bit tired? I'd always thought it was the other way round, but now I think about it I'm not sure that was anything other than intuition..