[SA Chris]

How do you fill a board with beer?

They do a complete range of boards for home brewing and fine dining: The YeastMaker and The FeastMaker.

No GeeseMaker? Or is that in the pipeline?

[Serpico]

What this thread needs is more SCIENCE, what top end climbing training needs is more science.

More SCIENCE:

http://www.turntillburn.ch/cms/ttb/fileadmin/website/images/pub/ansc/a2_pulley_biomechanics.pdf

http://www.turntillburn.ch/cms/ttb/fileadmin/website/images/pub/ansc/a2_pulley_friction.pdf

http://www.turntillburn.ch/cms/ttb/fileadmin/website/images/pub/ansc/lumbricals.pdf

[tobym]

What this thread needs is more SCIENCE, what top end climbing training needs is more science.

More SCIENCE:

http://www.turntillburn.ch/cms/ttb/fileadmin/website/images/pub/ansc/a2_pulley_biomechanics.pdf

http://www.turntillburn.ch/cms/ttb/fileadmin/website/images/pub/ansc/a2_pulley_friction.pdf

http://www.turntillburn.ch/cms/ttb/fileadmin/website/images/pub/ansc/lumbricals.pdf

Serpico, what do you think of that 'turntillburn' thing, as a training aid? (apologies for thread-drift!)

[Serpico]

Serpico, what do you think of that 'turntillburn' thing, as a training aid? (apologies for thread-drift!)

A few years ago I was very into heavy dumbbell finger rolls, which is the same principle. I'd do 3 sets of 10 reps at about 30kgs and then get on the fingerboard. Back then I think my fingers were at their strongest. The only reason I stopped was because it got too painful rolling the bar up and down the fingers.
The only concern with their method is that you have to let the bar roll to your finger tips and I'd be worried about pinging off onto my back.
But generally I find that combining a non-specific exercise like that to build muscle with a specific one, like finger boarding, to recruit muscle works well.

[benj_d]

he has the board hanging at just less than vertical so that when you hang, the flex/stretch/creak brings it to just vertical.
Although I'm not sure he has done this deliberately - that would be quite a lot of forethought for someone so blonde.

Mine is currently vertical by itself but when i am on it then its slightly overhanging, and even more so when someone heavier gets on it. I think it may need just a little bit more wood or something else on the back of the blocks that stop it swinging.

Also, I have never said thanks for the  Lagers. So... THANKYOU! 

[lagerstarfish]

Also, I have never said thanks for the  Lagers. So... THANKYOU! 

You're welcome 

[shark]

I need some advice. I have done about 9 sessions since Feb doing 7 sets of repeaters on different grips on-the-5-minute as recommended then some longer hangs on the deep slots at the end. Some I can complete and others 3 or more out of the 7. Unfortunately I have had no improvement since starting except for the longer hangs at the end. The points of failure are remarkably consistent. I was hoping to have nailed this set of grips and moved onto something a bit harder by now. Am I being too impatient? - do I need to do it more regularly? - or do I need to change the session structure because it isnt working for me ?

[stom]

9 sessions in 3 months? Without knowing more about your climbing/training patterns it sounds to me like your not doing enough volume on the finger board to see progression?  For me I'll spend about 2 sessions a week on various exercises for a period of 4 weeks whilst (spending another 2 sessions climbing either outdoors or in), I'll then prioritise something completely differant (like circuits or easy bouldering) for 3-4 weeks to allow any gains to become cemented before prioritising power related exercises again.

Remember to build up slowly though and once you start to see gains in one area back off a little so as to try to avoid injury.

[shark]

9 sessions in 3 months? Without knowing more about your climbing/training patterns it sounds to me like your not doing enough volume on the finger board to see progression? 

Counting it up 10 fingerboard sessions in 10 weeks - so about once a week as part of a mixed bag of systems training, outdoor redpointing, indoor bouldering and a little campusing. The fingerboarding is the only activity where I havent seen gains. I expected to be a able to have completed all the sets and making it more difficult by now rather than being stuck at the same number of reps. Would you not expect to make gains if you did it once a week (as part of a bunch of other stuff) ?

[Paul B]

is a little bit of everything the main factor here? Gains are going to be very slow if you're doing so many different things. Some of which no doubt hinders recovery and progression in others.
Hasn't it always been suggested to prioritise deadhanging in periods?

[shark]

is a little bit of everything the main factor here? Gains are going to be very slow if you're doing so many different things. Some of which no doubt hinders recovery and progression in others. Hasn't it always been suggested to prioritise deadhanging in periods?

I hadn't picked up on that - my impression was that deadhanging was an ancillary type session - that you added to other sessions or even after a day of climbing because it is so limited and specific.

[John Gillott]

9 sessions in 3 months? Without knowing more about your climbing/training patterns it sounds to me like your not doing enough volume on the finger board to see progression? 

Counting it up 10 fingerboard sessions in 10 weeks - so about once a week as part of a mixed bag of systems training, outdoor redpointing, indoor bouldering and a little campusing. The fingerboarding is the only activity where I havent seen gains. I expected to be a able to have completed all the sets and making it more difficult by now rather than being stuck at the same number of reps. Would you not expect to make gains if you did it once a week (as part of a bunch of other stuff) ?

When I've tried the 'repeaters' exercise I've found that it resembles a power endurance workout more than anything else (I should add that I'm very weak in that department so anything more than short boulder problems gets me pumped easily). Maybe the issue is that you're at the opposite end of the spectrum to me and that you're already near a plateau in this regard? - From previous discussions on UKC I remember you pointing out that your max redpoint grade is very high given your max (worked) bouldering grade. If it's strength gains you're after, maybe you'd be better off doing a sustained spell of one-handed deadhanging, on holds that only allow you do do one rep of 5 - 8 seconds?

On the other hand, maybe what you're doing is ideal - your redpointing is improving, which is, after all, what you're after. Perhaps the repeaters are sustaining your levels of PE and the small strength gains from the other exercises are giving you the extra bit you need to do better on the routes?

[shark]

Thanks John. With regard to one armed hangs I can scarcely do them on on second joint edges which I know you will find shocking. I bumped into 'Serpico' at crag and he has suggested trying training varied grips using sets of 4 x 20-30 sec hangs with 1 minute rests between hangs and then later in the week alternating it with a session of fingery campusing and foot-on campussing for recruitment. So I'll give that a try.

[John Gillott]

Can't hang a two joint edge one handed? - well, I need to invert the gentle put-down I once received: 'you're far too strong for the grade you're climbing.' In your case, you're far too weak for the grade you're climbing.

Do you or does anyone have any thoughts on the merits of various power endurance training programmes on a fingerboard? I realise that there are far better ways of training it, but it's not always possible for me to get to a wall or crag often enough.

Assuming 'repeaters' are a kind of lower end power endurance exercise there's that one. I've read that the jury is out on the merits of that exercise compared with the regime advocated by Goddard and Neumann, 25-40 second hangs to failure followed by up to a minute rest, repeated 12 times or so. Anyone got any experience of the effectiveness of either, or should I just settle for using the board to train strength and try to gain some endurance as best I can at a wall / through climbing?

[shark]

Assuming 'repeaters' are a kind of lower end power endurance exercise there's that one. I've read that the jury is out on the merits of that exercise compared with the regime advocated by Goddard and Neumann, 25-40 second hangs to failure followed by up to a minute rest, repeated 12 times or so. Anyone got any experience of the effectiveness of either, or should I just settle for using the board to train strength and try to gain some endurance as best I can at a wall / through climbing?

I am a little unclear on what repeaters are training but I'm not convinced its PE as its generally understood. I don't know where Dan Varian got the idea for repeaters from or what he thinks they are good for but in this article by "Rock Prodigy" http://tinyurl.com/ysdh82 a similar repeater structure is recommended under Advanced hangboard workout and Rock Prodigy is using it for training forearm hypertrophy ie getting stronger through muscle growth. To specifically train PE using your board for cicuits are going to be better than using a fingerboard. Try a cicuit you can last 90 secs on and repeat a few times and make it harder as you get betterer is a structure Gresham recommends. Its what I would do in the lead up to a sport climbing trip. Re one arm hangs talking again to Serpico it may be a weakness in the shoulder rather than the fingers that requires work. He went from struggling to one arm a first joint edge to comfortably doing it for 7 seconds following various dumbell exercises.

[John Gillott]

I'd guess that Serpico might well be right - I know quite a few climbers who seem to be a good bit stronger than me in the fingers by all conventional climbing measurements, but who struggle with one arm deadhangs.

That's interesting (RP on repeaters and hypertrophy). Yes, setting laziness aside, in a masochistic kind of way I don't mind circuits on a bouldering wall; just a matter of getting to a wall often enough and when it's quiet enough (to avoid annoying everyone else who's trying boulder problems).

Any thoughts on the Goddard and Neumann fingerboard regime for PE? Would it spoil the effect if instead of just hanging I did pullups for the required length of time (assuming that failure still occurred in the fingers rather than the arms)? If it makes no difference whether one hangs or does pullups, this exercise does seem remarkably similar to the very old school way I used to train as a kid: fingertip pullups on a door frame with a minute's rest in between sets. Before you know it I'll be trying to implement a very small fraction of Stevie Haston's training regime if I'm not careful...

[reeve]

John, re. PE on a fingerboard, myself and Abarro were talking about something similar to what you are considering. I did a kind of intervals with repeaters exercise: A set of repeaters lasting 1:10, followed by 50sec rest then repeat. For some of the hangs I was locked off at various heights, but about half straight armed to make sure it was my fingers which failed, as you point out. This felt pretty intense and definitely got a similar burning sensation in my forearms as more conventional PE circuits on a board do, however I only did one session like this so can't really report on its application to real life. Hope that's of some use, even if it just adds to your musings!

[John Gillott]

Cheers reeve, that does sound pretty intense! I guess if you add up the rests within the repeaters you get a bit more of a break than at first appears: 49 seconds (call it 50) on and 70 off in each two minutes, so not far from the Goddard and Neumann ratio.

A further thought occurs to me re going to failure. I quoted Goddard and Neumann about going to failure, and on checking that is what they say, for each set. This seems different to the advice given by Gresham and others for circuits on a bouldering wall where the idea is that you just complete / just fail (ie it's touch and go) on the last set only, and each set contains the same moves.

[St Hubbins]

Has anyone got/had metolius simulator and bought a beastmaker?

How much better is it really? Are the slopers that delicious?

(Sorry if its been brought up already but search didn't flag it, and I can't be arsed to read 8 pages)

[Krank]

It depends, do you wanna drive a ferrari or a pile of shit. Beastmaker is way better and yes the slopers are uber lovely.

[John Gillott]

Yes, I've now got both up at home.

One advantage of the Beastmaker is that it's made of wood. In addition to the obvious, that it's kinder on the skin, you also get a similar grip in most temperatures.

The slopers are a lot better, partly for the above reason, but also because there are two distinct useful slopers for training. One set of 'slopers' on the Metolius board is really just nice rounded holds rather than slopers.

Most of the holds have more rounded edges for the avoidance of tweaks and the range of small holds is a lot bigger and better (they're also that bit smaller, comparing the bottom rows of the two boards).

[St Hubbins]

Yeah man, just found this pic. I'm ordering one!

[Falling Down]

I can't be arsed to read 8 pages)

You might want to spend some time reading the training bumph on the website.. 

[marty]

Has anyone got/had metolius simulator and bought a beastmaker?

How much better is it really? Are the slopers that delicious?

The slopers are awesome, but I am really stuggling to hang the second set; The third set ... forget it .

[shark]

[

The slopers are awesome, but I am really stuggling to hang the second set; The third set ... forget it .

I can only assume they they ride up with wear as I can hang the slopiest ones (nesting) at the Floundry but not on my own one (or the Foundry one when it was first put up).

Potential there for confusing with progress.. or an incentive to keep trying.