[abarro81]

It probably is significant in the sense that still not many British women go onsight 8as. But also not, in the sense that it's two grades off the best for a British woman (and I'd wager if you got Molly psyched for a few months of first try climbing she'd onsight 8b+ and flash 8c) and an 8a onsight for someone who's climbed 9a is generally an everyday thing... So yes and no, like many things on this thread.

[thunderbeest]

How young should a guy be for it to be significant?

[abarro81]

8a onsight? Maybe below 10 internationally or below 14 for a Brit? I'm kinda guessing though, I don't pay attention so much to the youth stuff just know that by ~16 it should be impressive in its own right not because of being young

[jwi]

Maybe not ‘significant’ in terms of first of its type or anything, but still impressive for UK women. Internationally 8b+/c onsight looks to be about the level where it might be defined as ‘significant’ to the same degree.

I think this is approximately right for what gets written up on instagram-aggregation sites, but I think this is too high treshold. Almost no onsights gets written up, compared to redpoints. Maybe because the general level of onsighting has gone down compared to ten-fifteen years ago, especially for women (since there are no female Ondra to keep up the illusion of progress)

[stone]

It is interesting that onsights aren't where the focus is.

As an admiring punter, I'm most stunned by hard onsights. Presumably that's the sort of eyeballs sponsors are after (except I'm too tight fisted).

I'd also imagine the cutting-edge people can travel and have short time windows (due to comps etc), so on the face of it, onsights might seem to make more sense than projects for top people.

[andy moles]

It is interesting that onsights aren't where the focus is.

As an admiring punter, I'm most stunned by hard onsights. Presumably that's the sort of eyeballs sponsors are after (except I'm too tight fisted).

I'd also imagine the cutting-edge people can travel and have short time windows (due to comps etc), so on the face of it, onsights might seem to make more sense than projects for top people.

This might not be true but cynically, it's tempting to think that because on-sighting yields a lower absolute number, in a click-competing culture, it has less currency. Not so much an explanation of why fewer people seem to be doing it perhaps, as of why it might be less reported.

Also, speculatively, onsighting is hard. You only get one shot, all or nothing. It's less controllable, harder to be sure you can bank a win by working it to submission. Maybe a lot of athletes don't like that.

[remus]

Matt Fultz has made the second ascent of Big Z 8C+, a problem in Tahoe put up by Shawn Rabotou at the end of 2020. He's been grinding away on it for quite a while now (about 30 sessions) so I thought an upgrade might have been on the cards (for comparison, he did Vecchio Leone SDS in a ~4 week trip), but apparently not.

[jwi]

It is interesting that onsights aren't where the focus is.

As an admiring punter, I'm most stunned by hard onsights. Presumably that's the sort of eyeballs sponsors are after (except I'm too tight fisted).

I'd also imagine the cutting-edge people can travel and have short time windows (due to comps etc), so on the face of it, onsights might seem to make more sense than projects for top people.

This might not be true but cynically, it's tempting to think that because on-sighting yields a lower absolute number, in a click-competing culture, it has less currency. Not so much an explanation of why fewer people seem to be doing it perhaps, as of why it might be less reported.

Also, speculatively, onsighting is hard. You only get one shot, all or nothing. It's less controllable, harder to be sure you can bank a win by working it to submission. Maybe a lot of athletes don't like that.

I think that one of the reason is changes in competition routes. It used to be that the best competition climbers (Hirayama, Usiobaga, Julián Puigblanqué, Midtbø, Becan etc...) were amazing at onsighting on rock ( all onsighted 8c/c+ or more). The current crop doesn't seem to be that great in comparision, except the old guard who also competed 10 years ago (Ondra and Schubert mostly).

[PATRuL]

Maybe the younG'uns don't have the concentration for it these days  ... there's a lot of beFFudLemENt out there noOW

[Dingdong]

My personal opinion is that as the grade boundaries have shifted and harder things (V17/9C) have become the cutting edge they’ve become much more complex and thus harder to onsight which is why no one cares about onsighting so much. 8A and 8c obviously weren’t anywhere near the limit of human potential so was easier to onsight for the wads whereas now people are still psyched on cutting edge but chances are, no one’s gonna onsight Silence or BIG or burden of dreams.

People do still make noise about things such as 8B+ And 9a onsights though so it’s not totally out of fashion?

[andy moles]

as the grade boundaries have shifted and harder things (V17/9C) have become the cutting edge they’ve become much more complex and thus harder to onsight which is why no one cares about onsighting so much.

Are they more complex? Or just physically harder? You mention Burden of Dreams, isn't that a good example of a very hard thing that's anything but complex*? Not to suggest that an on-sight of BoD is on the cards, but there's a significant gap between that and the hardest things that have been flashed/on-sighted.

I reckon if you asked Ondra, he would not say that the limits of human potential in on-sighting have been reached.

*obviously there's the detailed micro-beta of how fingers sit on the holds etc, but the same can apply at 7B if that's your personal limit.

[abarro81]

My personal opinion is that as the grade boundaries have shifted and harder things (V17/9C) have become the cutting edge they’ve become much more complex and thus harder to onsight which is why no one cares about onsighting so much. 8A and 8c obviously weren’t anywhere near the limit of human potential so was easier to onsight for the wads whereas now people are still psyched on cutting edge but chances are, no one’s gonna onsight Silence or BIG or burden of dreams.

People do still make noise about things such as 8B+ And 9a onsights though so it’s not totally out of fashion?

I disagree with most of this. Why?
1. No one is seriously considering trying to onsight 9A or 9c, so the styles at that level are not relevant. Ondra - the best onsighter in the world - finds 9a onsight or flash hard enough. 9c is just not relevant.
2. The trend is evident at lower levels too - 8c onsight seems almost as rare now as it was 10 years ago, despite the number of 9a+ and 9b climbers having shot up (i.e. a hugely larger pool of climbers who redpoint at a level where 8c onsight is likely to be viable). (Flash a bit less so, but still uncommon). 8c+ onsight seems no more prevalent. 9a onsights are still incredibly rare. Even taking somewhere like the UK, Steve is still the best onsight sport climber in the country.

We've discussed this before on here - are the new crew bad at onsighting or were the old crew bad at redpointing? Or a bit of both... Certainly onsight is less in vogue even at much lower levels that it used to be 10-15 years ago IMO - I assume that's down to copying of the higher level climbers.

[Wellsy]

Is there an element of the routes they could have redpointed not being there or easily accessible? Like Jerry's flash and onsight were p close right? But if 9as in Spain had existed then, I feel like he'd have gone and done em

[spidermonkey09]

Certainly onsight is less in vogue even at much lower levels that it used to be 10-15 years ago IMO - I assume that's down to copying of the higher level climbers.

And a desire to finish a trip with something to show for it? Sure we've mentioned it before, but its a big risk trying a hard onsight on a weeks holiday as a decent, but failed go is likely to leave you spent for the day. Whereas a steady dog up it and then a straightforward despatch second go doesn't...I know which is more satisfying but I've definitely opted for the latter more than once!

[jwi]

Certainly onsight is less in vogue even at much lower levels that it used to be 10-15 years ago IMO - I assume that's down to copying of the higher level climbers.

And a desire to finish a trip with something to show for it? Sure we've mentioned it before, but its a big risk trying a hard onsight on a weeks holiday as a decent, but failed go is likely to leave you spent for the day. Whereas a steady dog up it and then a straightforward despatch second go doesn't...I know which is more satisfying but I've definitely opted for the latter more than once!

Scorecards are just the worst ever, evidence 100. The inner satisfaction of some of my enormous but ultimately futile fights on the onsight stayed with me for years, whereas I usually forget that I even did the route if I did it 2nd go.

(Also eight-a point nü removed beta-flash as a viable style for the fifteen years when people actually used their scorecardsystem by givining it way too few points)

Whenever some pro is bragging about doing lots of stuff second go/in-a-day, I just think "wow you are miserably bad at onsighting, non? Is it mental weakness or bad endurance?"

[Dingdong]

My personal opinion is that as the grade boundaries have shifted and harder things (V17/9C) have become the cutting edge they’ve become much more complex and thus harder to onsight which is why no one cares about onsighting so much. 8A and 8c obviously weren’t anywhere near the limit of human potential so was easier to onsight for the wads whereas now people are still psyched on cutting edge but chances are, no one’s gonna onsight Silence or BIG or burden of dreams.

People do still make noise about things such as 8B+ And 9a onsights though so it’s not totally out of fashion?

I disagree with most of this. Why?
1. No one is seriously considering trying to onsight 9A or 9c, so the styles at that level are not relevant. Ondra - the best onsighter in the world - finds 9a onsight or flash hard enough. 9c is just not relevant.
2. The trend is evident at lower levels too - 8c onsight seems almost as rare now as it was 10 years ago, despite the number of 9a+ and 9b climbers having shot up (i.e. a hugely larger pool of climbers who redpoint at a level where 8c onsight is likely to be viable). (Flash a bit less so, but still uncommon). 8c+ onsight seems no more prevalent. 9a onsights are still incredibly rare. Even taking somewhere like the UK, Steve is still the best onsight sport climber in the country.

We've discussed this before on here - are the new crew bad at onsighting or were the old crew bad at redpointing? Or a bit of both... Certainly onsight is less in vogue even at much lower levels that it used to be 10-15 years ago IMO - I assume that's down to copying of the higher level climbers.

Sorry I may not have explained myself too well. In the context of the discussion “why is red pointing more in vogue than onsighting on social media” - it’s because I am more interested in seeing the cutting edge than I am in seeing someone do something a number grade below the max level that currently exists - this is my personal opinion ofc and some people do prefer seeing or doing onsights.

[Fiend]

Onsight is goooood mmmmmmkay 

[abarro81]

Ah, I think I get you - a level of circularity where onsighting levels drop further behind redpointing, therefore becomes less appealing, therefore drops further behind, etc? Personally that just makes me like hard onsighting even more, but I am definitely not the average consumer of media/social media.

Is there an element of the routes they could have redpointed not being there or easily accessible? Like Jerry's flash and onsight were p close right? But if 9as in Spain had existed then, I feel like he'd have gone and done em

I feel Ben and Jerry were very redpoint focused (at least after Jerry's earlier days). Jerry's hardest RPs were 8c+ but I think his hardest os/flash was 8a+, so not particularly close. I'd guess maybe that would partly be because there were fewer things to onsight back then, but then he did Evo in '95 - the same year 8b+ was first onsighted, so maybe the UK scene was just not very into onsighting at that point?

The inner satisfaction of some of my enormous but ultimately futile fights on the onsight stayed with me for years, whereas I usually forget that I even did the route if I did it 2nd go.

Whenever some pro is bragging about doing lots of stuff second go/in-a-day, I just think "wow you are miserably bad at onsighting, non? Is it mental weakness or bad endurance?"

Ha, I'm exactly the same. I've had a few experiences where someone has lowered off a redpoint proclaiming how easy the route is and all I can think is "well why didn't you onsight it then".

[User deactivated.]

The onsight specialists are climbing on plastic. Hopefully, after the next Olympics, a lot of them will start to do it where it counts 

Tomoa recently flashed a confirmed 8C+ and took 8B+ for it.

[SA Chris]

The onsight specialists are climbing on plastic. Hopefully, after the next Olympics, a lot of them will start to do it where it counts 

I predicted that would happen after the last cycle, but don't seem to remember much happening.

[thunderbeest]

I do think we should remember Janjas OS of 2 8c in 2021.
(Also a special mention of Leo Bøe, who did his first 9a not so long ago and put good effort in trying 8cs first go)

[teestub]

I missed that Matt Fultz had repeated Raboutou’s Big Z in Tahoe

[Duma]

Matt Fultz has made the second ascent of Big Z 8C+, a problem in Tahoe put up by Shawn Rabotou at the end of 2020. He's been grinding away on it for quite a while now (about 30 sessions) so I thought an upgrade might have been on the cards (for comparison, he did Vecchio Leone SDS in a ~4 week trip), but apparently not.

What, you missed Remus posting it this morning, on this thread?

[teestub]

Yes, evidently, amongst all the onsighting posts!

[stone]

......ts a big risk trying a hard onsight on a weeks holiday as a decent, but failed go is likely to leave you spent for the day. Whereas a steady dog up it and then a straightforward despatch second go doesn't...I know which is more satisfying but I've definitely opted for the latter more than once!

Is the Ondra style of onsight much less exhausting than a hanging-in-there protracted war-of-attrition style would be? I thought he thrashed up without hesitation, unleashing raw instinct. Doing that could potentially be no more exhausting than a limit redpoint attempt?

I'm sure I'm just revealing the depth of my ignorance here.