[Aussiegav]

No doubt Ondra is king and has high ethics in views of style of ascent.
BUT, there a few videos of his ‘Onsights’ where he does them with the draws in situ.
I’ve always regarded Onsight as putting the draws in as you climb.

Even at my low pay grade, putting the draws in does add a level of challenge & more effort to the climbing.

I would imagine that climbing routes in the 8b and above difficultly with draws in must make them “less strenuous”. Therefore making them ‘easier’ to ‘Onsight’ in comparison to the truest definition of Onsight.

Hopefully Barrows can shed more insight on this. I don’t know anyone else in UKB that’s Onsighting at this level.

[lukeyboy]

I’ve always regarded Onsight as putting the draws in as you climb.

Even at my low pay grade, putting the draws in does add a level of challenge & more effort to the climbing.

I'm not an elite onsighter - however I think it's well established that 'draws in' is standard practice for onsighting these days. I reckon you'd have to go back 30+ years for this not to be the case.

And yes you're also right that it is harder / purer not to have the draws in - but that doesn't mean one is a valid onsight and the other is not.

[jwi]

The main reason draws in are accepted for onsights in sport climbing is the practical aspect: On many crags at least half of the routes have draws in during the season. It is highly impractical to ask some gopher to go up the route and take them down in order to do an onsight...

Also, on redpoints the draws are assumed to be in, so why should onsight be different?

On most routes it is harder to onsight when hanging in the draws, but not always. For most of the long routes in Gorges du Tarn it makes no difference if the draws are in or not. Every bolt can be clipped from a jug.

[Fultonius]

No doubt Ondra is king and has high ethics in views of style of ascent.
BUT, there a few videos of his ‘Onsights’ where he does them with the draws in situ.
I’ve always regarded Onsight as putting the draws in as you climb.

Even at my low pay grade, putting the draws in does add a level of challenge & more effort to the climbing.

I would imagine that climbing routes in the 8b and above difficultly with draws in must make them “less strenuous”. Therefore making them ‘easier’ to ‘Onsight’ in comparison to the truest definition of Onsight.

Hopefully Barrows can shed more insight on this. I don’t know anyone else in UKB that’s Onsighting at this level.

Showing your age there pal!

"placing draws" is now the king-flex of onsighting, but draws in is 100% an onsight.

I suspect the old ethics were a hangover from avoiding it being like pinkpointing trad? Who knows.

[andy moles]

the truest definition of Onsight.

Isn't the 'truest' definition of 'on sight' just a literal one? Walk up to the bottom of the route, look at it, and without gaining any additional information, try to climb it?

Beyond that it's just degrees of purity, i.e. minimising factors that are going to make an ascent easier. I bet on a lot of routes the difference made by having draws already in place is less than the difference made by having the holds well chalked, yet no one regards the presence of chalk as discounting an onsight (again, for practical reasons). It might be easier sometimes to know the grade in advance too, so the truest onsight would have to be a first ascent!

[ali k]

For most of the long routes in Gorges du Tarn it makes no difference if the draws are in or not. Every bolt can be clipped from a jug.

If you ignore the extra weight of 20+ draws and the fact you have to look for small grey bolts in grey rock instead of big bright shiny things leading the way. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it changes the validity of an onsight for the reasons of practicality you give, but it definitely makes a difference and I’ve blown the onsight on more than one occasion looking for a hidden bolt. I’m more impressed with an onsight placing the draws anyway, even on enduro routes.

[jwi]

For most of the long routes in Gorges du Tarn it makes no difference if the draws are in or not. Every bolt can be clipped from a jug.

If you ignore the extra weight of 20+ draws.

No route in Tarn require 20 draws! Not even the 55 m super-onsightable 8s on Tennessee wall require more than 11-12 draws. Get lightweigts, and get in!

[abarro81]

As ever "onsight" covers a broad spectrum of difficulty, from putting draws in on a dusty unchalked line to draws already in and ticks on all the holds - the chalk and ticks aspect is far more important than the draws. Same for "flash" (from seeing someone do the crux once to full spraydown of beta and watching people on it for days) and redpoint (from 2nd go to 2000th go). The problem is that we often use these terms and grades to define how impressive an ascent is supposed to be, when they're very bad at doing that. Anyway, like others have said, I think having to put draws in on onsights probably died before I started climbing.

Is the Ondra style of onsight much less exhausting than a hanging-in-there protracted war-of-attrition style would be? I thought he thrashed up without hesitation, unleashing raw instinct. Doing that could potentially be no more exhausting than a limit redpoint attempt?

A limit redpoint on a steep long (say, 40m) route can also leave you done for the day too, at least for me. The main difference is you probably won't be on a limit redpoint on a long route on a short trip. Trying to redpoint something that might take you a week of effort in a week's holiday would obviously also be risky, just for a different reason. In my experience people on short trips are either onsighting or - more commonly nowadays - doing quick redpoints, i.e. in a day or two. On short routes it's all more arbitrary as you can have a failed onsight try without destroying yourself.

[remus]

Elias Iagnemma has made the fourth ascent of Burden of Dreams after getting really close a few weeks ago. Interestingly his beta is pretty different to everyone else [2] who's climbed the problem so far (heel hook? paddle dyno?!)

[1] https://www.instagram.com/p/C49dbMFoL34/
[2] https://www.instagram.com/p/C4Q3UgeNjLo/

[ferret]

Jumped from lower feet too, essentially the starting hand hold

[andy moles]

Interesting that he commented on his own post there (the older one) to say that he was honestly sad to have found this new beta. Like it wasn't as big a challenge as he had hoped?

[jakaitch]

Interesting that he commented on his own post there (the older one) to say that he was honestly sad to have found this new beta. Like it wasn't as big a challenge as he had hoped?

Still took the 9a tick

[Fiend]

Looks cool that way especially the crossing hand back move

[Fultonius]

Damn, does that mean the original method is now Big Grades for Bad Beta?

[Dingdong]

Damn, does that mean the original method is now Big Grades for Bad Beta?

Will tried the heel for a couple sessions and didn’t find it easier so not necessarily

[AndyP]

Someone on Reddit commented that Nalle worked with beta very much like this for years before changing beta, and that he judged the two beats to be similar in difficulty but with the "standard" beta being less luck dependent.

[crimpinainteasy]

Someone needs to fly Tomoa out to burden. I reckon he would piss it with the new method.

[edshakey]

Seb Berthe has climbed Bon Voyage

Incredibly happy and proud to have climbed Bon Voyage, 9a trad (E12) 🤯🥳🥰 third ascent after James Pearson and @adam.ondra !

I first tried Bon Voyage in April 2023 for half an hour after my flash ascent of “Le Voyage” and I immediately fell in love with the route, and decided it would be one of my main goals for 2024.
The notion that on this wall, a route could be freeclimbed on gear, is akin to a magic trick 🧙‍♂️ A big congratulations to the magician James  (@onceuponaclimb), for having the vision and perseverance to see through his "Bon Voyage" till the end!

I spent more or less 8 sessions in total on the route and this was definitely an ups and downs process... I truly enjoyed it and had to try really hard to make it happen ! More info to come soon about the whole story!

📷 from @solinekentzel 🙏😘

All the attempts and the send were filmed and a fullspecial movie of the process is in preparation 🎥🎬🎞 stay tuned!

Thanks to all those who helped and support me with this process: Soline,  @jeanelielugon @miquelmathieu (aka Michmich), James, Miguel, my parents Rico and Coco, Magali and Gilles, @antonin.rhodes , @taylormadeholds , @francocookson , @jacopolarcher ,Lionel , and all the others… Thank you! 🥰
 

Did I beat remus this time?? 

[User deactivated.]

Someone needs to fly Tomoa out to burden. I reckon he would piss it with the new method.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tomoa could piss most boulders out there.

[rossydoodle61]

Interesting that he commented on his own post there (the older one) to say that he was honestly sad to have found this new beta. Like it wasn't as big a challenge as he had hoped?

Unless I’m looking at the wrong comment that’s just a random person with a similar first name.

[andy moles]

Interesting that he commented on his own post there (the older one) to say that he was honestly sad to have found this new beta. Like it wasn't as big a challenge as he had hoped?

Unless I’m looking at the wrong comment that’s just a random person with a similar first name.

You're right, ignore me 

Apparently I don't read beyond the first three letters on instagram.

[SA Chris]

There are words on Instagram?

[chriss]

There are words on Instagram?

My wife said I'm not cool enough for Instagram.

[cheque]

11-year-old climbs 9a

[remus]

Buster Martin climbed The Journey 9a+ in Margalef a couple of days ago.