[athletikspesifik]

Dylan/Stevie and others,

I would appreciate it if you could help with respect to some of the climbing specific variables.  For example, we can't go by numerical intensity and volume (forgive me for my American-ness here), 10 V1's (40pts) is NOT the same as 4 V10's (40pts).  This is going to depend on the onsight (route climber) or Flash (boulderer) ability of the individual - some of the brutish ones out there are flashing V11.  This is my argument for making it detailed. 

What about attempts?  You spend the whole morning working Vhard and can barely lift a sandwich to your mouth by noon, but you haven't actually sent anything yet.  Should all of this nonsense go under - intensity was a 4 out of 5...volume was a 3 out of 5?  If that's the case, then there's probably no reason to list your onsight/flash grade to begin with - or is there?  I have spent many days sending nothing but my arse to the crashpad...maybe sending just warm ups.  Whatever the techno/tactical/strength/power/psych/skill deficiency this is - I still worked hard with nothing to show for it.  That's my argument for simplifying it.

I can make all the same arguments for volume; length of route, number of routes/problem. 

I think I'm convincing myself of opting for the simpler score.  But, I would like a touch more input.

[athletikspesifik]

Thanks LGD,

Owen (of Running Research News?) is a great Coach, however, that seems to be very general - maybe I'm being too anal here.  There must be a separation between the general and sport specific values.  I like the 1-5 scale and the total of 20 for indication of over/under training.   No doubt, subjectivity will reign because of our grading system.

[stevie haston]

Athletikspesifik and other concerned anal nerds. Judging recovery is vitaly important and extreamly difficult;;;;; judging volume is extreamly difficult in climbing especially when you just go climbing or flit around in your training, this is why I some times opt for a very simplistic approach to my training so I can quantify it.  I have seen the most improvement in top climbers who train for some part of their year in a way they can quantifie (normaly comp climbers); bouldering is not my bag but I have seen the most basic training being used by  two top boulderers in europe ( they may have been geniuses of course). A basic stamina traverse (I can think of one right now at the bottom of Raven Tor) can be used to periodicaly to check whats going on, or more simplistic count the number of times  you do 141. Good luck, keep the training imput coming please. I have had alotta very good advice and help recently from nerds on this board. Stevie

[Paul B]

I slept well last night
I am looking forward to today's workout
I am optimistic about my future performance
I feel vigorous and energetic
My appetite is great
I have little muscle soreness
They rate each statement on the following scale:

1 - Strongly disagree
2 - Disagree
3 - Neutral
4 - Agree
5 - Strongly agree

Last night I had a rubbish session, on that I would of scored over 20. I guess it was nothing to do with recovery.

[Jaspersharpe]

That's exactly what I was talking about earlier. Sometimes I can tick all those boxes and I climb like a twat. Others the list could be:

I was woken up three times last night by a small child shouting/being sick etc
The last thing I feel like doing is training/climbing.
There's no way I'm going to last more than about three problems before bagging it.
I feel lethargic and hungover.
I could well throw up.
I'm still in agony from Wednesday's fingerboard session.

And I crush. 

I've given up trying to quantify it and just get on with it / go to the pub depending on which hand I've been dealt that day.

[Palomides]

Jasper,

The comment above linking mood state to overtraining was interesting, but I strongly suspect that most studies will have been done with "athletes" i.e. younger people with no kids whose time is almost entirely dedicated to their sport (even if they're supposed to be sudents...).

Throw in a full time job, and at least one child, and the relation between mood state and readiness to train is not going to be as clear-cut. Sometimes going climbing is a great way to get away from everyday stresses.

Another good reason for pre-negotiated climbing outings.

[Jaspersharpe]

Good point.

[shark]

Last night I had a rubbish session, on that I would of scored over 20. I guess it was nothing to do with recovery.
[/quote]

Having read in many articles that you should "listen to your body" I have tried to. Trouble is it complains a lot and quite often it lies to me. I am trialling a new regime of "ignoring my body" until it goes on strike in which case I will bag a session or give it a little break as a treat. 

[Paul B]

Good point.

which applies less to me.

[Jaspersharpe]

Ah yes Paul but your "old before your time" nature means that although you don't have a full time job or children you are already weighed down by the "mood state" baggage that those type of things bring. So, unfortunately for you mate, the same rules already apply.

 

[Nibile]

I slept well last night
I am looking forward to today's workout
I am optimistic about my future performance
I feel vigorous and energetic
My appetite is great
I have little muscle soreness

judging from this, i am either an amazing athlete with superhuman recovering abilities, or a sad gym junkie completely unable to read into his mind and body.

[Houdini]

Ah yes...   ..."mood state" baggage...

Qualidy patronage, mate.   

[Paul B]

Ah yes Paul but your "old before your time" nature means that although you don't have a full time job or children you are already weighed down by the "mood state" baggage that those type of things bring. So, unfortunately for you mate, the same rules already apply.

 

The NEW me is generally more positive, but yes, you're quite right 

[jfw]

Everyone has different rest requirements.

People respond on a very individual level to different volumes and intensities of training.

It would be great if there were a magic programme to follow - but really you have to make one that suits you and your goal/s

improving through training means increasing volume and/or intensity (normally best done in cyclic increases alternating hard/easy rather than continual increase).

sources seem to refer to a red line which if over stepped means you will be overtraining - resulting in decrease in perfomance, loss of psyche, injury, more frequent illness etc.

do  you have to overstep that line at some point to gain the experience to know the indicaors your body gives as to where it is?

a lot of people seem to forget to factor other stressors that can "wear you out" like work/family/relationship stress, poor sleep when planning/assessing training performance.

[athletikspesifik]

I think it would be helpful to include more injuries AND give them some sort of grade scale for severity.  Question: how do I assign a percentage grade deficit (Vail Associates paid me $4,000 in 93' for ACL reconstruction based on the assumption that I had a 4% lifetime deficit) for an injury.  It would seem that an injury closer to the point of contact to the rock (upper body) may have a higher point total?  What about injury severity?  Grade 1-3 like Ortho's use?  Any thoughts from clinical professionals?

Using points of official grade (as in a pt for each V grade is very dependent upon the onsight/flash grade ability of the climber) seems tricky to me.  I've seen one of my friends warm up on V7 and V10 like they were V1.  But if he tried a different V10, it would be a different story.  I think doing a 1-5 perception scale (for volume AND intensity) might be somewhat closer to what the climber is really going through, rather than adding point totals to problems/routes redpointed/flashed.  I've spent whole days just landing on my ass without sending anything - does that mean my body hasn't had stress?   In addition, each problem/route (even though equally graded) may feel different for the same climber and therefore perceive their effort expenditure differently.

[the little drummer girl]

Owen Anderson (PP 163) uses a shorter questionnaire to monitor the performance status of the athletes he coaches. Each morning the athletes assess themselves against the following six questions:

I slept well last night
I am looking forward to today's workout
I am optimistic about my future performance
I feel vigorous and energetic
My appetite is great
I have little muscle soreness
They rate each statement on the following scale:

1 - Strongly disagree
2 - Disagree
3 - Neutral
4 - Agree
5 - Strongly agree
If their score is 20 or above then they have probably recovered enough to continue with the training program. If their score is below 20 then they consider rest or an easy workout until their score rises again.

This is slightly less rigourous approach. Most training days I wake up with 5 of the 6 questions answered very positively, apart from the sleep one. I never feel like I am getting enough hours shut eye, though I nearly always feel psyched and ready to train.

I might try Athletikspiffings approach and see if I am making up for the lack of sleep somehow or if I am fooling myself into over training...

I'd better clarify - Richdraws posted this without checking if he was signed in (again). I agree with the sleep part, but I can do one single pull-up with my arms bent at 90 degrees, and I don't train very often because I'm not motivated in the same way that he is. I prefer to save my grimaces for real rocks.

Interesting reading the responses though...

I'll sign out now.

[athletikspesifik]

Still researching/working on it, had to move over the weekend...still not done moving.

[athletikspesifik]

Based on responses, I have revised the categories for user friendliness and (hopefully) maintain some level of accuracy.  I have yet to score values for each item of description.  In addition, I haven't described normal ranges of motion or many other values.  I have only narrowed the descriptive categories for general ease of use and participation.  I have been moving to a new Apt in my spare time among other things, so please be patient.

Background Info (update only for changes in Condition) #1

1.   Body mass
      a.   Height
      b.   Morph
      c.   Body Fat
2.   Metabolic Endurance (can change to rowing)
      a.   Bouldering – 400m long sprint
      b.   Sport – 3K run
      c.   Trad – 10K run
3.   Sleep
      a.   Normal hours – deviations
      b.   Travel Sleep - alertness
4.   Resting Pulse
      a.   Normal – 60-80bpm
        1.   Above
        2.   Below
5.   Apatite
      a.   Maintaining Mass
      b.   Increasing Mass
      c.   Decreasing Mass
6.   Metabolism
      a.   Feeling Cold
      b.   Feeling Hot
7.   Stress
      a.   Positive
      b.   Negative
8.   Age
      a.   10-17
      b.   18-25
      c.   25-35
      d.   35-40
      e.   5 year increasing increments
9.   Sex
      a.   Male
      b.   Female
10. Climbing preference
      A. Bouldering
Started
      a.   0-3years
      b.   4-6
      c.   7-10
      d.   10+
Difficulty Level
   a. Beginner
   b. Intermediate
   c. Expert
   d. Elite

B. Sport
Started
      a.   0-3years
      b.   4-6
      c.   7-10
      d.   10+
Difficulty Level
   a. Beginner
   b. Intermediate
   c. Expert
   d. Elite

C. Traditional
Started
      a.   0-3years
      b.   4-6
      c.   7-10
      c.   10+
Difficulty Level
   a. Beginner
   b. Intermediate
   c. Expert
   d. Elite

11. Athletic Background
     A. General Sports
      1.   Time/Length of Participation
      2.   Level of Competition

12. Previous Injuries – from point of rock contact to mid-section.  Rated from a 1-3 scale of ROM, Pain
a.   Finger
b.   Wrist
c.   Elbow
d.   Shoulder
e.   Neck
f.   Back
g.   Hip
h.   Toe
i.   Ankle
j.   Knee

Daily Condition #2

1. Intensity – 1-5 scale for your discipline
2. Volume – 1-5 scale for your discipline
3. Psychology – 1-3 scale for good - bad
4. Social Situation – 1-3 scale for good – bad
5. Nutrition/Hydration
   A. Before – rate 1-3 scale for good – bad
   B. During – rate 1-3 scale for good – bad
   C. After - rate 1-3 scale for good – bad
6. Rest
7. General Conditioning
       A. Intensity
       B. Volume

Please let me know if this will still provide the level of accuracy we hope for, while being user friendly enough.