[stevie haston]

Alright nerds, help needed. I am having trouble judging if I am ready to train, I am so enthusiastic I think I,m jumping the gun. When in doubt I have just added another days rest, but have still had bad results. I sometimes check my pulse to see if its elevated or not, and try not to train if atall saw but I still think Iam getting it wrong. Is there some new way like blood pressure or anything. Staminna is still going up but I thought I ,d have a little power to go along with it, not much doing. I may be doing (almost certain) too much volume and will switch after Xmass in any case. your thoughts, thanks Stevie. 

[webbo]

a low heart rate can also indicate a lack of recovery.however the temptation is to belive your getting fitter hence its dropped a few beats.

[Probes]

Alot depends on yourself, you gotta learn what feels right. Recovery rate is dpendant on a million things, mainly age!! I now know that im fully recovered when, it feels hard to get gonig and warmed up, but during warm up i start to feel stronger and  fittr quickly. If im not recovered i warm up quickly n die quickly. After a good 3 hour power session.. can take 3 days to fully recover.. thats for me.

[Jaspersharpe]

I now know that im fully recovered when, it feels hard to get gonig and warmed up, but during warm up i start to feel stronger and  fittr quickly. If im not recovered i warm up quickly n die quickly.

That pretty much exactly describes how I am now too. Unfortunately I never have any idea before I start a session if it's going to be the former or the latter as it isn't always dependent on how I feel or how much rest time I've had. So confusing. Sorry stevie, this isn't much help, just found it interesting to see someone describing exactly what happens to me.

[Probes]

Jasper, i can sort of tell before, its the difference between feeling old, creaky, sluggish... ready to rock or.. old, less creaky and a bit achy... not ready.

I just built a fantastic board in my cellar, n am for first time in years, full on training, and its been a good education, because its there when i need it, so thro trial n error i can now judge when to jump on it. Also its a really good challenge in not getting injured. Nothing better than getting in from work, having a brew, bit o tea then get on it in own time... opposed to running round like a loon to get to the wall for 7.30.

Roll on Action Direct...

[stevie haston]

first thanks webbo, what I do is cancell if my pulse is 10 beats too high.
Next I am a bit scared my recovery is slow because of my age, after all thats what we are told , thanks for the other two posts Probes and Jasper, this is whats kinnda bugging me, I used to just know, now I am always fru fruing around with it. Something else I do is a test set of pull ups on the proposed day of training but I cant seem to make my mind up. I feel very strong after 5 days but you dont get many training cycles in this way. Staminna is what I really am after but you know its nice to kind of feel over powered. I may need a rest, but dont want to, I dont take creatine as I wanted to loose wieght but might start, and I dont want to bulk anyway, I want to drop 4 kgs. Stevie

[Houdini]

How much do you weigh?

And from where do you propose to lose 4kg? 

[Probes]

Stevie, my suggestion ud be to do less in a session if its takin 5 days to recover. Its that old thing of stoppin when performance drops off, n saving a little bit for next time. Stating obvious probably, but its easy to forget when your psyched. N like you say your body changes as you get older so you have to rediscover what works. Have you tried taking Vit c tablets.. 500mg at least a day?? Keeps any bugs away and gives your body best chance to recover.

[webbo]

i too are of a similar age to your self.i even remember doing a weights sesh with you way back in the day at bangor uni gym? when motivated and not distracted by other shit in my life,i can still train quite hard for several days in a row.earlier in the year whilst on holiday i would boulder one day then do weights and swimming the next i did this for 10 days.i managed a similar pattern when in alps this summer boulder,then road cycle.the problem is that i wake up one day and just feel wrecked.where as the previous day i feel tired but ok.
so my conclusion is keep going and your body will tell you when to stop and just don't drive a 100 miles to go climbing after 10 days on as its a bit gutting to find yourself pumped putting on your shoes. 

[stevie haston]

hey webbo, yes man, back in the day. Good to hear you are still getting some in, there'rs a lotta dinos out there, still trying. Yes thats the bit, like you say, it can be ok, then you crash. I just wish and thought that there might be a way of knowing (like a tiny machine/ idiot proof stuff) Anyway another mate just told me to stop winging. Probes, Vit C 2000 mgs. Houdini,,,,, I wiegh 68 kgs I am 5 foot 7 ins, I dont have 4 kgs to lose (2kgs poss) , but I would dearly love twinky sport climbers legs.Stevie

[cuboard]

your just past your best mate.....

[athletikspesifik]

This question of judging your rate of recovery is a difficult, multifactorial problem.  The resulting fatigue has many mechanisms, the build-up of metabolites within muscle fibers and the generation of an inadequate motor command in the motor cortex are two of the main culprits.  As you and others have stated, age is related, but your current level of climbing-specific conditioning and how long you have been at this stage is also an important factor to consider.

I am in general agreement with most of the regular contributors to this forum; train often and start the cool-down process when feeling like your strength is waning...for bouldering.  If your currently trying to increase your endurance, then this model doesn't hold.  To gain endurance for routes, we'd have to spend time maintaining pump.  However, this changes the daily dose of climbing volume (depending on age/training age/current conditioning levels...etc).  Given these factors, the day following a difficult day could range from moderate to easy to doing active recovery (some sort of aerobic activity).  It is unreasonable to believe that peak endurance lasts for a season or something - weeks at the most.

I think it would be helpful, as a group, if we use the Borg 'http://www.medal.org/visitor/www%5CActive%5Cch36%5Cch36.01%5Cch36.01.02.aspx' (RPE) to come up with a 'training stress score' (TSS) on a daily/weekly/monthly/block system according to age, sex, onsight level, climbing-specific conditioning status among some other possible factors.  Although the Borg scale is based on an aerobic model, maybe we could develop a 1-10 scale of our own to help quantify our sport.  Aerobic sport use these tools constantly to measure their current status.  Our problem, in my opinion, is that our sport is not aerobic and it is not cyclical in nature.  We have a high techno-tactical factor that these other sports don't have to consider (to some small degree they do, but, comparatively inconsequential).  There will never be a perfect quantitative scale for us, but, I think some sort of algorithm might be a way to have a general idea of where an individual climber's status might look like???

Any mathmatical/software engineer types out there interested in developing something like this?  I'm sure there would be many good ideas we could come up with to help with accuracy?

[Nibile]

hey stevie,
despite being italian i know your feats and CV pretty well, and from this i dare to suggest that you simply go after your feelings. i am sure you are well capable of understanding your body. maybe you will have to trim some aspect that's age related, but with your experience i'm quite sure you'll make big progresses just following your sensations.
maybe trying to keep your calm and not to rush things will be helpful, but i know it's very hard!!!
respect.

[stevie haston]

morning, athletispeak, thanks for that stuff, I have tried followinf that kind of regime when cycling and running, and even though as you say bikling and running dont have the tec aspects of climbing this system does not work fo me and never has. I would not suggest its not the way to go but it doesnt work for me. Many of the training protocols have been drawn up  by exceptional people or by exceptional people on drugs. recently someone was caught twice for drugs in climbing and he had afvocated this system of training. Now the trouble with much of this stuff is that it is mainly  nonesense until a few of us start doing lots of training and then comparing results, basically sharing. So thanks Athletispeak and if anybody wants to follow what he said and then come back and share that would be wonderful. This system is the one Marius tried to follow. Marious worked in an athletic department of a Uni with many fantastic athletes(I met some of them), they obviously got something right.
Today my recovery seems spot on (I have done my first segment and its better) rest period has been 4 days. I will keep going in the hope the rest will come down (as I need extra skill training), but am very interested in what others do, or are trying. My problem is I might not be average (who is) so may need different training (twitch fibers, tendon alighment and general mascochistic). Thanks again Athletispeak, and I am trying to create a leval of fitness to train from, and I think it might be working.
Nible, thanks, having patience is maybe the secrete, something I have always lacked (I have mediteranian genes), maybe I have a little more patience(or lazy) because I am older and it will compensate for slower recovery. Good climbing and training to all,Stevie

[Nibile]

ciao again stevie.
here's what i do.
from late summer until one week ago, i have basically only bouldered indoors, with almost no other excercise like campusing or fingerboarding, just some front levers. this was for four times a week plus one day out. it involved quite a big volume and always highest possible intensity, and it paid off. after a couple of months i got to have a couple of weeks with just one good session on the board, and maybe one other weak session, but was still bouldering well out, even if i had to take two days off before.
last week i started a new cycle. i do mon, tue, thur, fri and sunday out. it's quite high in both volume and intensity, with excercises on the wall like one armers with one foot on, swings on both sides from crimps and then locking off one arm with one foot on, and obviously various forms of bouldering: one handed, two moves problems, etc.
it's very hard, and i've been happy to take two days off this weekend. i have to stretch, and to eat loads to keep the energy levels high, but also take supplements in the form of aminoacids and minerals.
hope this helps.

[stevie haston]

ciao Nible, I think every thing might help, the more info I have the better I might understand. So Nible, how old are you and was your leval of training high before. You see for me, if I train with high intensity I will need to rest more, perhaps this is because my intensity is very high(?) My original post was how to judge if you are ready to train again, that is fully rested. I am more than happy for the discussion to broaden, as you never know when you might learn something. i have just finished a fantastic training session and am really (now) happy with how its going. so, the next thing I have to decide you see is when to train again. This for me is the hard bit and I really wish there was more than a 'listen to your body solution', as I think either my body or ego or keeness is interfering.
 Indication that it is ok to train is if you are keen, not scared to train, feel full of strength, but the ans lies normaly only after you train and you know that you did more or better or with more wiegth etc. You see it is much easier to know if you over train.
Any way thanks, this last week I have felt the need to go south and see the sea, drink very strong coffee and laugh. Stevie 

[athletikspesifik]

Hey Stevie, I am in total agreement with you.  Basing climbing periodization off of aerobic protocols doesn't work for our sport.  As we all know, there are many factors that go into climbing at one's limit.  I'm not suggesting using ANY aerobic stress scores...I am suggesting that we, as a group, come up with a "stress score" of our own.  We have a tentative computer programmer (PhD student), who has volunteered his services to help us.  If we come up with a list of important factors that he could program into an algorithm of sorts, then we might have a way (albeit, not perfect - but, maybe good) to have a measurable stress score to help us determine (graphically?) our current status, helping to avoid over-training.  Our volunteer has agreed that this would be a free, open source, "portal" for everyone to use.  I have been thinking of this for a couple of years, so I have some ideas to add - and I think it would be helpful and fun, if the many thoughtful climbers from this forum could start adding factors that they think might help out.  I have a few contacts, that may be able to help if we were to pursue this, giving some advice.

I've received several messages of interest, but I'd like to put it out there for all to put in their opinions...

[Nibile]

stevie, i am close to 37, and i think my training has been always a bit too much probably. overtraining was an issue, but i also think this made me more used to high volumes of training. anyway, i have been training seriously, i mean with a professional telling me what to do, only for the last 3 years.
lately it's been very hard for me to judge my recovery. my mind was always much stronger than my body, and more than once i found myself in the gym almost unable to do anything serious.
in these cases i tried to just do very few moves as hard as i could with longer rests.
today for example i wasn't feeling very good during the warm up and then i had a very good, powerful session.
one thing i can definitely notice is when i feel "heavy", not sparky at all, and that's a bad sign. but i have to say that i don't train for endurance, only power for bouldering, so maybe things are a bit easier for me to judge.
one other thing, definitely, is that when i'm not recovered and am not training well i have more difficulties to fall asleep at night despite feeling very tired.
everything about recovery for me is very empiric.

[stevie haston]

morning Athleticspeak, your proposal sounds great, kinda what I want, something concrete from climbers, about our training. Not hearsay or another artical on training that doesnt make sense, dreamt up just for money. Might even be what the internet was actually designed for.
Nible, ciau. You sound like you are on top of it, apart from the over enthusiasim, like me. I think things are much easier to judge for power, and I imagine that the above athelispeak and friends might be able to do us proud in that direction (hope and pray), endurance is wierd especialy climbing endurance. To have power and endurance well that would be interesting.
Anyway yesterday I had a really great training day felt great, then lots of pain, nothing injurus, just pain, still pain , had about 6hours sleep, and this happens one in 3 sessions.  good luck with training,Stevie.

[athletikspesifik]

Alright, due to overwhelming enthusiasm - I will start with some ideas.  It seems like we need two categories of measurement:1.general 2.climbing specific. 

Category 1- General
1.  Blood pressure - take 5 day baseline when feeling healthy.
2.  Coordination - static/dynamic
3.  Bodymass - 5 day baseline
4.  Endurance - 3/5K run
5.  Sleep requirements - baseline
6.  Resting pulse - waking baseline
7.  Body temperature - baseline
8.  Appetite - general Kcal estimate
9.  Metabolism - feeling cold/hot
10. Psychological stress - work/home etc...
11. Age
12. Male/Female

Category 2 - Climbing (might need 3 separate categories; sport, trad, bouldering???)
1. Training Age - specific to your climbing preference (been bouldering for 3 years...sporty for 28 years etc...)
2. Previous injuries
    a. finger
    b. wrist
    c. elbow
    d. shoulder
3. current onsight level

4. previous 30 days of volume (It would appear as if over-training is the sole cause of non-accidental training injuries, whereas
under-training is safe and merely leads to lack of progress. This is only partly true. Consistent under-training, which
never allows the climber to adapt to high stress levels, and may expose them to risk if they are "psyched", socially or individually on a particular route/problem.)
    a. daily attempts total or maybe a volume score based on the individual (6 out of a 1-10 scale indicates slightly higher than moderate volume)
    b. weekly attempts total or maybe a volume score based on the individual
    c. month/block attempts total or maybe a volume score based on the individual

5. previous 30 days of intensity (At a muscular level, Hans Selye’s General Adaptation Syndrome theory seems to be substantiated by the finding that different types of muscle fibers would be recruited differently according to the intensity of the movement;for us - size, angle of holds/distance between holds/torso position/hip mobility etc.... Sustained sub-maximal climbing utilizes slow- twitch (ST) muscle fibers whereas brief, intense bouldering (depends on angle, blah, blah) recruits fast-twitch (FT) white fibers.)
A. daily 
    a. 1-10 scale of hold size
    b. 1-10 scale of hold torque angle
    c. 1-10 scale of hold distance
    d. 1-10 scale of wall angle
    e. 1-10 scale of compression
    f.  1-10 scale of body extension
    g. 1-10 scale of sustained resistance
B. weekly 
C. month/block
Too much detail?  Just an overall score?  More detail?  I think the detail might help answer questions about specific weaknesses or failing on something you feel like you should be able to do.
6. current soft tissue soreness/stiffness
7. Hip range of motion - examples to follow
8. Shoulder range of motion - examples to follow
9. Wrist range of motion - examples to follow
10. Individual psych
11. Social psych

This might be a start, and I would appreciate any (constructive) input.  My feelings don't get hurt very easily, and I will defend specifics as I think certain factors have evidence-based validity.  However, I'm not married to the list and willing to modify accordingly.  We/I may also need to come up with %-based importance on certain factors to help quantify.

[stevie haston]

athelispeak, very good, so first suggestion, move this to another box. You need at least 10 to 20 super nerds with the info / input you need, they are here on this board, for sure.
I looked up some of my training stuff and in the days when I was super nerdish to judge my recovery, I used to do a list of questions and tests, it was based on some stuff Hatfield the power lifter wrote about. There was some phisical stuff like blood pressure, pulse, hand and eye co-ordination, twitching, soreness, absense of diarea, and then some mental stuff like feelings. It did help me and wasnt complicated after I put int onto a  card,  I did get good (probably best poss) results when using this card.
So yes what you are thinking of doing is v.good. Keep it up, I think this is the right approach.Stevie

[JonI]

Sounds like an interesting project, but that level of detail seems a bit much to me.
There was a recent study on college swimmers that used a profile of mood state questionnaire, where they found a significant correlation between mood state and some biochemical markers of overtraining.  If I remember rightly the overtraining rate went from about 10% to almost zero just through daily monitoring using the questionnaire.

[athletikspesifik]

Thanks for the input.  I should do a better job of clarification; many of the factors on the list would be a one time answer (unless your changing your sex organs frequently).  I think values of 1-5 make for a good statistical value.  1-10 is too much (that problem was a 7 or 8???), 1-3 seems to vague (1- walked it, 3 - took 47 attempts over the summer????).


Category 1- General
1.  Blood pressure - After baseline, maybe once per month unless indicated by other factors
2.  Coordination - static/dynamic - quick daily
3.  Bodymass - baseline, then once or twice per week
4.  Endurance - 3/5K run - periodically to check for aerobic recovery
5.  Sleep requirements - baseline, then record if unusual
6.  Resting pulse - waking baseline, record if unusual
7.  Body temperature - baseline, record if unusual
8.  Appetite - general Kcal estimate, revisit if there is mass gain/loss
9.  Metabolism - feeling cold/hot, not too much effort to perceive this one
10. Psychological stress - work/home etc...maybe daily or weekly, depending on lifestyle
11. Age - I think just once annually
12. Male/Female - just once?

Category 2 - Climbing (might need 3 separate categories; sport, trad, bouldering???)
1. Training Age - specific to your climbing preference (been bouldering for 3 years...sporty for 28 years etc...).  I still think this might be best if it was three separate categories, and each individual stayed on his/her end of the playground.  But, many people switch it up...so, I'm open for suggestions.
2. Previous injuries - this seems like it would not be a daily update, if it is, something's wrong.
    a. finger
    b. wrist
    c. elbow
    d. shoulder
3. current onsight level - unless you're a gifted teen, new to the sport, this might not change too often.

4. previous 30 days of volume Monthly
    a. daily attempts total or maybe a volume score based on the individual - current consensus is 1-3 or 1-5 scale (I vote 1-5, if properly defined)
    b. weekly attempts total - not too hard if daily attempts are recorded
    c. month/block attempts

5. previous 30 days of intensity
A. daily
    previous list was deemed too detailed, maybe a value for intensity (1-5) and a general description? (steep, crimpy, compression...combo of up to 3, 2???)
B. weekly
C. month/block

6. current soft tissue soreness/stiffness - daily or weekly, depending on previous injury, strength endurance stage...etc
7. Hip range of motion - frontal and sagital planes, one time test and re-test if you're working on improvement or recovering from an injury
8. Shoulder range of motion - too detailed to list now, but certain restrictions can be indicators for susceptibility to injury
9. Wrist range of motion - certain restrictions can be indicators for susceptibility to injury
10. Individual psych - too detailed to list now
11. Social psych - too detailed to list now

So, to help clarify...this would be a web(portal?) where the climber could re-visit their status and change/update as needed to get graphical analysis of their status.  I have NOT confirmed the ability to that as of yet, but, that's what I'm hoping for/picturing in my minds eye.  This would reduce the duplicity of constantly entering new data.  If an individual is not responsive to their data entry log for some period of time, they would be dropped and have to re-enter data.

[the little drummer girl]

Owen Anderson (PP 163) uses a shorter questionnaire to monitor the performance status of the athletes he coaches. Each morning the athletes assess themselves against the following six questions:

I slept well last night
I am looking forward to today's workout
I am optimistic about my future performance
I feel vigorous and energetic
My appetite is great
I have little muscle soreness
They rate each statement on the following scale:

1 - Strongly disagree
2 - Disagree
3 - Neutral
4 - Agree
5 - Strongly agree
If their score is 20 or above then they have probably recovered enough to continue with the training program. If their score is below 20 then they consider rest or an easy workout until their score rises again.

This is slightly less rigourous approach. Most training days I wake up with 5 of the 6 questions answered very positively, apart from the sleep one. I never feel like I am getting enough hours shut eye, though I nearly always feel psyched and ready to train.

I might try Athletikspiffings approach and see if I am making up for the lack of sleep somehow or if I am fooling myself into over training...

[account_inactive]

Good post.  Don't complicate things for the sake of it