[Sloper]

Personally I think the two threads on cocktalk about this issue plumb, even for cocktalk a new low which is bordering on defamation.

Mick Ryan's standard of journalism would just about be acceptable on the Daily Express.

[GCW]

Now when are they going to Rivelin Quarries?

They got wind of a super hard unrepeated slab there, so they're steering clear 'cos they think they'll get their asses kicked.
There's always a little thing at Fairy Steps to try too.

[stevie haston]

Hello, sorry to be bullish about this, and I dont want to be personal, but are you sure Paul that people dont want to be good in the many aspects of climbing, its simply they find themselves unable. I was for many years just a good boulderer when I wanted to be a good climber, and behind all that was my dream of being an alpinist, I also wanted to be handsome and intelligent and  oh yes nearly forgot -funny . You know there is nothing wrong with being ashamed or saying I must try harder, other wise we might all be mediocre.  I understand the bit about not wanting to hurt yourself, but arnt at least half of these hard routes totally safe. Anyway my contribution to this thread is now at an end. Cheers Stevie

[north_country_boy]

Totally agree with Stevie on this, however it is completely personal what people choose to focus on within the broad world of climbing and i can totally understand why people may not want to risk life or limb on dangerous routes.......my hat goes off however to the true all rounders who maybe don't get the recognition they deserve in the UK because they don't specialise.......El Mocho for start! 

[spasmatron]

Gentlemen (and of course ladies, although I notice you remain noticeably silent in this matter),

Wouldn’t it be perfect if the (at least in my eyes) noble activity, nay lifestyle, of climbing remained aloof above the petty squabbles and arguments of conventional sports.  Where progress and success is not reduced to shallow names, numbers, ranks, tables and scorecards.

Who amongst us has not felt the righteous pride and exultation, much deserved on dragging ones sorry arse to the top of a particular favorite chosspile, whether it be a poison-ivy riddled 5.4 scramble in Delaware Water Gap, or an E9 pucker-fest at Moulton Quarry.   Why do we consistently feel the need to categorize and compare individual success, particularly when we know that on certain days, we can make diamonds with a left hand pinkie, and yet on others, are reduced to flapping round, like wet newspaper in a gutter.

Can achievement not be merited in its own right?   Archimedes invented the lightbulb. Did we call him a tosser, when Wankel moved things on to the incandescent tube?  Yogi bear invented the television (in Scotland, at least).  Did we mock and titter when Billy Ray Cyrus discovered HD video disk?  Not in the least.  We stood back, like men, women and hermaphodites and applauded with our hearts minds and epiglotti.

Please people, I beseech you, don’t lets be twats about this. Even you, Stevie Haston, A grade is a grade, is a grade, and nothing more.

So get a grip, folks. Lets end the angst and wailing and just get back to grabbing hold of big chunks of granite, sandstone, limestone, rhyolite, plagioclase feldspar, and cummingtonite, rubbing ourselves bodily against the massive solidness, and quit with the fucking whining.

That especially means you, Mick Ryan.  Honestly, I’d be embarrassed if I were you – running backwards and forwards between Supertaco, Cocktalk and Ukthrutch like a schoolboy who's just wet his panties.  It’s not journalism. Oh no.

[SA Chris]

All quiet on the American front. Did they get pissed off with the weather and go home?

[Bonjoy]

No, they are still in Sheff, for another couple of weeks in theory. Spoke to Alex yesterday at the wall, they’re as bored and pissed off by the weather as you might expect. I think they’re mostly watching DVDs and going to the Works. I got the impression that if the weather doesn’t improve they might head back early.

[Jaspersharpe]

I thought the Tor was dry. 

[grimer]

According to Graham Hoey, one of them flashed End of the Affair, thinking it felt like E6. I think this is all really interesting, as they don't have such a burden of expectation. Even if they don't understand E grades, they can can still rate the climbs they have done, in order of difficulty, which gives a very useful insight.

[Fiend]

Better get the red pen out G-Dawg

[Kingy]

I thought the Tor was dry. 

I met Alex at the Tor 2 weeks ago and he was really psyched by the climbing there and enjoyed the routes he did. However, he mentioned that although he would be stoked to come back for more this trip, his compatriots were unfortunately somewhat anti-sportclimbing so I guess we'll have to wait a little longer for a Team America onslaught.

[T_B]

According to Graham Hoey, one of them flashed End of the Affair, thinking it felt like E6.

Maybe it does show that the E grade is b*llox after all. I mean, if you listed all of the grit E8s in order of difficulty, you've got EOTA/Gaia and Captain Invincible, Marbelous or any of Miles' routes in that bracket. Totally daft really.

Shame our visitors are so focussed on pulling down. The Lake District is very beautiful at this time of year. They could be getting some first class hiking in, rather than watching DVDs.

Or maybe I could get them to help with my decorating...........................................

[Fiend]

Maybe it does show that the E grade is b*llox after all. I mean, if you listed all of the grit E8s in order of difficulty, you've got EOTA/Gaia and Captain Invincible, Marbelous or any of Miles' routes in that bracket. Totally daft really.

Is it?? Aren't EOTA/Gaia at the bottom of the grade (which like all grades cover a band of difficulty not a single instance) and aren't CI/Marbellous at the top of it?? Furthermore isn't the difference that the latter are safe but physically hard and the former bold but physically easy?? I.e. the adjectival grade accounts for different factors (which are pretty obvious from the types of routes). Just like the E2 grade includes Brown's Eliminate at one end and Insanity at the other...

P.S. Good idea for the Lakes though. Proper mountain spirit bizzle

[SA Chris]

Weather good up here too.

[slackline]

Weather good up here too.

They should head up there then, could probably sneak in a repeat of Rhapsody given how quickly they're crushing on t'grit.

[Bonjoy]

Maybe it does show that the E grade is b*llox after all. I mean, if you listed all of the grit E8s in order of difficulty, you've got EOTA/Gaia and Captain Invincible, Marbelous or any of Miles' routes in that bracket. Totally daft really.

Is it?? Aren't EOTA/Gaia at the bottom of the grade (which like all grades cover a band of difficulty not a single instance) and aren't CI/Marbellous at the top of it?? Furthermore isn't the difference that the latter are safe but physically hard and the former bold but physically easy?? I.e. the adjectival grade accounts for different factors (which are pretty obvious from the types of routes). Just like the E2 grade includes Brown's Eliminate at one end and Insanity at the other...

P.S. Good idea for the Lakes though. Proper mountain spirit bizzle

Hmmm, range within a grade is a given, but don't you think it's a bit daft how E8 covers stuff from font 7b (maybe lower) to font 8a (maybe higher)? Take Gaia versus Mother of Pearl, both E8, one vastly easier than the other, strangely not even much difference in risk of injury terms. No wonder one is popular an the other isn't.

[cowboyhat]

If only the E grade scale was open ended...

[dave]

Hmmm, range within a grade is a given, but don't you think it's a bit daft how E8 covers stuff from font 7b (maybe lower) to font 8a (maybe higher)? Take Gaia versus Mother of Pearl, both E8, one vastly easier than the other, strangely not even much difference in risk of injury terms. No wonder one is popular an the other isn't.

I would have thought its not beyond the realms or possibilty for Mutha Of Pearl to easily be E9, in the same way that welford 7b+ was always 7c.

[grimer]

exactly, same as Captain Invincible, and maybe routes like EotA and Gaia are really E7. They certainly hold the same place in the e8 grade as Kaluza Klien holds in the E7. Not doubting that they were those grades for the first ascensionist, though.

[Jaspersharpe]

The line has to be drawn somewhere but when one route gets 20 repeats (inc a couple of flashes) and another gets one or two (or none) in a similar time frame then we all know what the answer is.

[Bonjoy]

Don’t get me wrong, I think on balance I’m pro E grades. I do however think they are pretty nebulous and at the upper end more prone than any other grade system to inaccuracies due to  FA modesty/over enthusiasm, missed intricacies, advances in protection etc. There also seems to be a higher weighting for danger in the grade equation than for difficulty, which perhaps leads to a misunderstanding about which routes actually represent the cutting edge, which subsequently leads to Stevie Haston proclaiming UK climbers are all shit etc.

[mark s]

i,m looking forward to seeing what they make of the western hard routes if they come over.things like parologism will be a trainer ascent warm up

[T_B]

You need to agree that certain routes are 'definitive'. To me, Ulysses was always definitive grit E6. Which is why i've always thought that the softies - life assurance, nosferatu, barriers in time, moonshine, janus, salmon l-hand etc i.e. the ones that get on-sighted loads, should come down to E5. At E7 stuff like Kaluza Klein should come down to E6, maybe even Dangerous Crocodile. i.e. F7a and below climbing. Rockfax to be fair seemed to be doing this and even Barriers was E5 in On Peak Rock. But then something like Never Never Land got upgraded to E7 (BMC Guide). Even at E7 there are routes with f8a or Font 7c+ climbing on them (Groove is in the heart), so they are clearly not within the same range as Never Never Land at F6c+.

Choose your Definitive E7, then one At E8, then strike off the ones at the bottom and the top (hint the ones at the bottom get done a lot). Simple. Ultimately it's the guidebook writer who "gives" the grade. Personally I think there's way too much status quo by guidebook writers pandering to our fragile egos or not wanting to upset Johnny. The fact is that most people are not 5'3, we have micro cams and 5.10 rubber.

[AndiT]

But then I suppose there are fb7b problems I can do everytime and without any trouble yet fb6b ones which I can repeatedly fall off due to their insecurity and conditionsyness. It doesn't mean they need their grades flipping.

As much as it baffles foreigners or brits that climb abroad too much I still think I know what I'm letting myself in for by the british trad grade of a route. When I stand at the bottom of Piece of Mind and read E6 6b, then stand beneath Master of Reality and read E6 6c it all makes perfect sense even if one of them is considerably easier than Marie Rose (sp?) and the other is more like pumpy F7b above crumbly wires.

The problem with E grades only comes in when we start comparing it to other systems, where it clearly doesn't fit.

[Baron]

The hard routes should be up-graded. As cowboyhat quite rightly said, our system is open ended.