[SA Chris]

It will be anarchy I tell you.

Signed, perplexed of Tunbridge Wells.

[lagerstarfish]

First the Bees - then farmers markets will be taken over - and the final step will be Waitrose.

THEN WHAT WILL WE DO!

you see all those tiny radio controlled helicopters that are being sold fucking everywhere these days?

that's the future of pollination

well, that and my army of robot wasps




previous reference to bees

[lagerstarfish]

serious North / South divide stuff going at at the moment

http://www.thestar.co.uk/features/video-sheffield-henderson-s-relish-taste-test-1-6390772

[tomtom]

serious North / South divide stuff going at at the moment

http://www.thestar.co.uk/features/video-sheffield-henderson-s-relish-taste-test-1-6390772

Whats Hendersons?

Are they like the Krankies but from Sheffield?

[psychomansam]

So psychomansam you're telling me you listened to a free thinker to tell you things a child with an iq above 70 would know?
I like your opinions on fear.

I teach children. Some of them even have an IQ over 70. You seriously overestimate the level of their thinking.

[psychomansam]

It will be anarchy I tell you.

Signed, perplexed of Tunbridge Wells.

I had a mate from Tunbridge Wells. He no longer talk to me, largely I think because I'm poor and left wing. I shit thee not.

[Sloper]

+1000

Surely, if anybody willing to taken an interest and try to see some IMHO objective realisation at work, they should consume more of Chomsky. He's the intellectual that has motivated me most in objective thinking, away from most of all influences we have every day.

Sorry to burst your bubble but by and large Chomsky is full of self referencing, illogical, tortious and fact free shite. he's as far from objective or rational as it is (almost) possible to get, although I think Sokal might be in close proximity.

Try reading Popper On an Open Society or some one who can string a sentence together.

[Sloper]

It will be anarchy I tell you.

Signed, perplexed of Tunbridge Wells.

I had a mate from Tunbridge Wells. He no longer talk to me, largely I think because I'm poor and left wing. I shit thee not.

Have you ruled out the possibility that you spout  :wank:y left wing drivel that after a while becomes rather tedious?

[DaveC]

Have you ruled out the possibility that you spout  left wing drivel that after a while becomes rather tedious?

FUcking hell Tom, my irony meter just just went of the scale and exploded! 


Agree about Popper over Chomsky though.

[Sloper]

Yeah well mate, at your fucking age 'tis the only action you're going to be getting, ps how's the shelia coping with some weather?

[fatneck]

Dream boulder in back yard...

[Oldmanmatt]

Dream boulder in back yard...

Can't you just imagine, generations of Vintners; grumbling about the bloody great lump of limestone in the middle of the Vineyard and wondering how it got there........?

[Sloper]

Bad news for watermelons and conspiracy theorists. 

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jan/31/sellafield-radiation-alarm-radon-gas-nuclear-reprocessing

[Sloper]

WTF. That is all.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/13/ten-level-wheelchair-ramps-shocks-clydebank-family

[slackline]

Trans-Atlantic "Free-Trade" Agreement

Not sure how this will work given there are different standards (food safety for example) between either side of the Atlantic. 


I'm sure it won't matter though, someone will no doubt profit and thats what counts.

[Sloper]

Trans-Atlantic "Free-Trade" Agreement

Not sure how this will work given there are different standards (food safety for example) between either side of the Atlantic. 


I'm sure it won't matter though, someone will no doubt profit and thats what counts.

In loose terms profit is what makes everything worthwhile, perhaps a Cochrane (sp?) analysis would assist?

[slackline]

Yes but humans have to a great extent overcome the selection pressures that have shaped our evolution and are capable (although not always willing) to be altruistic (with out the need to invoke game theory) to others and future generations.  You wouldn't think it to look at the way many behave though.

In particular I take umbrage with aspects of the proposal that seek to curtail green energy policies in the EU such as the US Airlines companies wanting the EU emiossions controls scraped.  Its myopic.

[Sloper]

I don't think we're talking about evolution here, more the development in multi jurisdictional systems and controls, I would suggest that the nearest comparator is the development of the practices of the Hansiatic league or the banking / commerce of the Northern city states in what is now Italy.

Andy Popp should have something to say about this.

As far as I'm concerned the 'it must be bad when some one makes a profit' analysis is not only utterly fatuous but also allows for debasement of the debate and the sort of virulent fuckwittery levelled against the 'banksters', which in the not too distant past would be 'Jews'.

[slackline]

Yes but things like environmental protection legislation are needed across the jurisdictions.

Seems one side of the Atlantic are attempting to impinge on the others on this front.

[andy popp]

I don't think we're talking about evolution here, more the development in multi jurisdictional systems and controls, I would suggest that the nearest comparator is the development of the practices of the Hansiatic league or the banking / commerce of the Northern city states in what is now Italy.

Andy Popp should have something to say about this.

As far as I'm concerned the 'it must be bad when some one makes a profit' analysis is not only utterly fatuous but also allows for debasement of the debate and the sort of virulent fuckwittery levelled against the 'banksters', which in the not too distant past would be 'Jews'.

There seems to be several things going on. First, I don't think evolutionary pressures and altruism are mutually exclusive. In fact, altruism will often have powerful evolutionary benefits - unless you're Ayn Rand. But then she was insane.

Both the Hanseatic League and the city states of Northern Italy emerged before the Treaty of Westphalia (1648) which set the template for the modern nation state. In other words, innovation in economic institutions led advances at the levels  of state formation, law and jurisdiction. The same happened in the C19th with the Zollverein (customs union) preceding the formation of the modern German state. There's no doubt capitalism is great at innovation.

As to profits, clearly it is fatuous to say profits are always bad ... but I think Milton Friedman's dogma that the business of business is business equally fatuous and probably more pernicious. Which can bring us back to altruism: profits are best thought of not as the end goal, rather they are means to ends.

On the relationship between capitalism and morality I'd recommend Diedre McCloskey's Bourgeois Virtues.

[tomtom]

What Andy said

[Sloper]

Andy, thanks for the recommendation, I'll look into it.

In respect of profits vs non profit (which can but necessarily is, commensurate with the state running things) the point is without the pursuit of profit then many of the wonderful by products of capitalism (as you say the development of law & etc) will not occur.

The counter point is that systems that are predicated on the non generation of profit also tend to be those that don't respect the key components of the rule of law on which profit making rests.  The mindless 'qui bono' brigade and the apologists of the extreme left are able to pollute the debate in a way that few other 'groups' are.

Anyway, we're getting close to a civilised and informed debate so I'll have to resort to some mindless abuse, you pre senile old trot.

[Stubbs]

the point is without the pursuit of profit then many of the wonderful by products of capitalism (as you say the development of law & etc) will not occur.

Just because things lead to advancements in civilisation in the past doesn't make them right for our current situation.  I'm sure you can come up with your own examples.

[Sasquatch]

Andy, thanks for the recommendation, I'll look into it.

In respect of profits vs non profit (which can but necessarily is, commensurate with the state running things) the point is without the pursuit of profit then many of the wonderful by products of capitalism (as you say the development of law & etc) will not occur.

The counter point is that systems that are predicated on the non generation of profit also tend to be those that don't respect the key components of the rule of law on which profit making rests.  The mindless 'qui bono' brigade and the apologists of the extreme left are able to pollute the debate in a way that few other 'groups' are.

Anyway, we're getting close to a civilised and informed debate so I'll have to resort to some mindless abuse, you pre senile old trot.

The problem with that term is that generally profit = money.  I'm all for profit maximization, if profit includes all costs and benefits, not just financial.  Civilization and technology have grown to the point where the externalities borne by those not involved in transactions have increased disproportionately, in particular the costs.  This is one of the biggest issues needed to be addressed by government, but until the general populace on both the left and right can agree on something corporations will continue to use this to maximize their profit.  This isn't about right or left, it's back to bourgeoisie vs. proletariat with different names.

Adn don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-corporation.  I think they're great, I just think they have more power than they should at the moment.  The pendulum has swung a bit too far....

[andy popp]

Exactly!  That's my problem with people like Friedman, who thought corporations had no responsibilities beyond maximizing shareholder returns, and externalities be damned. Unfortunately it has become such an incredibly influential mindset,  the corporate rationale.