[Jaspersharpe]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/7952155/Seven-students-to-fight-for-every-clearing-place.html

Some universities with traditionally high numbers of clearing places said courses would be "extremely limited" and only available to "highly capable" students.

Can't help thinking that this is a good thing. Too much pressure is put on kids to go to university when there are plenty of other options. Instead of rushing into the first degree course you can think of, surely it's better to take a bit of time out to decide what you really want to do (which may or may not be best achieved by doing a degree)?

Johnny Rich, editor of Push.co.uk,  said: "Snapping up a place in clearing may get you into university, but if it’s not what you want, you may leave with huge debts and no degree. You’d be better off waiting a year or two until you can get the place you want."

Or huge debts and a degree that is of no use whatsoever when it comes to trying to find a job.

[Stubbs]

I don't know if it's changed now, but when I started at Uni ('98), once you were in on a course, it was very easy to move onto a different course and even trade departments completely.  Several of my friends on Geology moved onto that course after having started on a joint honours course which had a much lower entry requirement.  This basically means you can get on the higher demand courses once you have your foot in the door.

Does anyone know if this is still the case, Tomtom?

[Sloper]

Jasper I entirely agree, with the exception of perhaps medicine.

[stevej]

with the exception of perhaps medicine.

That doesn't make any sense, medicine has got to be both the worst possible degree to get pressurised into doing and also the most difficult degree to just fall into. It's a very long course, you've got to be bloody good at memorising stuff to get through it, the career options are limited to pretty much being a doctor of some kind if you pass, research if you fail, you need to be planning a couple of years in advance to get all the voluntary work done to compete with the rest of the candidates, UCAS limit the number of medicine applications you can make to four rather than the usual six and to top it all off it's extremely difficult to get a place even if you're very good (for example my classmate six years ago has 4 (science) As at A-level plus another in gen studies and another A at AS, a couple of years of clinical voluntary work and was rejected by 2/4 unis he applied to).

Something like engineering/pure science on the other hand has an obvious career path, shorter degree (with bonus masters option for one more years worth of fees, unlike doing a separate masters which you have to finance yourself) hence less debt, the opportunity to get into whatever other field you feel like including finance, teaching, business or other more funky conversion courses and lots of opportunity for research (and there's lots of funding knocking around too). If you do medicine you'll eventually end up an overworked junior doctor with minus many tens of thousands of pounds or you'll end up dropping out (with minus many tens of thousands of pounds).

[slackline]

(and there's lots of funding knocking around too).

[Sloper]

My point about medicine, and I say this as a non medic, is that it's presented as probably the one subject where being a mature student is considered to be a disadvantage. 

[galpinos]

My point about medicine, and I say this as a non medic, is that it's presented as probably the one subject where being a mature student is considered to be a disadvantage.

Really? I'm not a medic but the missus is and the mature students doing medcine with her faired far better than the youngsters, especially early on in the uni bit. (She started uni in '98 though so things may have changed).

(I realise this is anecdotal but it's all I've got to go on. Continuing the anecdotal theme, the missus works with a couple of lads who, having done well at medcine at uni then went into the city for a couple of years, Boston Consulting Group and the like, before coming back to medcine. They both reckon their degree stood them in good stead when applying for jobs. They're both pretty sharp though.)

[stevej]

Not seen any evidence of funding shortfalls in my department yet, we've got a lot of big contracts for a lot of big projects and there are still probably just as many people doing individual bits of work too. If the research councils are giving away less money by proposal they've definitely upped it with the big stuff they want doing. Something like 15% of my years undergrads have ended up back here doing phds, I'm pretty sure everyone that fancied doing one is now neck-deep in project and funding.

For what it's worth, unlike the rest of the country, my year is virtually all employed or doing research in the one-year-on questionnaire. Noone explicitly unemployed, ~90% responded. Yet another reason to do a sensible, extremely vocational and also flexible degree such as engineering. If social 'science' funding is tight or it's hard at other unis/in other departments then I guess it sucks to be them.

I would pull out the xkcd no. of research students vs no. of jobs graph but I can't be arsed finding it.


Sloper: Fair enough, it's a pretty long course but I've never heard of a gap-year being a big negative deal in medicine or any other course, instead lots of places strongly value a year in industry, some institutions *require* it for some courses. FWIW I know someone with a phd about to start a medicine degree.

[Snoops]

My point about medicine, and I say this as a non medic, is that it's presented as probably the one subject where being a mature student is considered to be a disadvantage.

Sorry to be harsh, but this is bullshit. Current perception in the Medical Schools is that mature students bring a great deal to medicine.

They have probaly done a previous degree and/or worked, hence they really want to do it, unlike numerous 17 year olds 'hot housed'  and pushed by parents and teachers into doing it as its thought to be 'a good career'.

They have better life/social skills, and hence their patient management is definably better

They realise they are 'fortunate' to be on  a career which is difficult to get into, they don't skip lectures for bed, and are generally super motivated, and often spend their  holidays attending extra clinical sessions rather than pissing them up the wall.

These are obviously generalisations, but hold true for the most part. Sheffield medical school entry 2 years ago was  nearly 40% mature (one of the highest percentages for any degree) and they actively encourage mature student applications.

There is a caveat on this I'm not referring of mature students in 35-45 open university range, but 23 - early thirties.

And yes I'm a surgeon and academic and see these trends firsthand.

[slackline]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/7952155/Seven-students-to-fight-for-every-clearing-place.html

Some universities with traditionally high numbers of clearing places said courses would be "extremely limited" and only available to "highly capable" students.

Can't help thinking that this is a good thing. Too much pressure is put on kids to go to university when there are plenty of other options. Instead of rushing into the first degree course you can think of, surely it's better to take a bit of time out to decide what you really want to do (which may or may not be best achieved by doing a degree)?

Johnny Rich, editor of Push.co.uk,  said: "Snapping up a place in clearing may get you into university, but if it’s not what you want, you may leave with huge debts and no degree. You’d be better off waiting a year or two until you can get the place you want."

Or huge debts and a degree that is of no use whatsoever when it comes to trying to find a job.

Sounds like you've been moonlighting as a careers guidance councillor Jasper

Going abroad to study sounds like a good idea too

[Stubbs]

For what it's worth, unlike the rest of the country, my year is virtually all employed or doing research in the one-year-on questionnaire. Noone explicitly unemployed, ~90% responded. Yet another reason to do a sensible, extremely vocational and also flexible degree such as engineering. If social 'science' funding is tight or it's hard at other unis/in other departments then I guess it sucks to be them.

What course did you do?  There are certainly shortages (both funding and careers) in the environment sector, and as far as I know in earth sciences too.

[Jaspersharpe]

Sounds like you've been moonlighting as a careers guidance councillor Jasper

Yeah that's without a doubt the best route into accountancy. You don't even need A levels.

The other important thing is that by the time someone else has finished their accountancy degree, you will have 3 - 5 years experience of actually doing the job which no amount of studying can replace. They will be starting from scratch, you will already be able to earn a decent living.

I've seen accountancy graduates start work in practice and not have the first clue how to do the job. Of course, this is neither their fault nor that of the university. It's just that you can't teach what you need to learn by doing the actual work.

As far as missing out on the social side is concerned, how about bumming around climbing for 3 years first? Worked for me. 

[stevej]

What course did you do?  There are certainly shortages (both funding and careers) in the environment sector, and as far as I know in earth sciences too.

Mechanical engineering @ Sheffield. Lots of government funded nuclear engineering and renewables sorted pre the conlib cuts along with quite a lot of private industrial stuff keeping us going at the moment. Apparently department is #2 for research according to the stat crunchers. There are definitely career shortages but everyone from here seems to have got something sorted which is rather surprising really, all the big British engineering names seemed to either halve graduate intake last year or didn't take any on. Most smaller firms seemed to take a year off employing people. One of the reasons I chose research was that the money shortcomings seemed to be lagging behind everywhere else. I was the only person that applied to do my phd despite the funding sat waiting for a student.

And as for accountancy degrees, I'm not sure I've met any accountants that have done one and I don't think I've met many accountancy students that have any understanding of money or business (let alone are now accountants).

[slackline]

This is just taking the piss 

[Sloper]

Snoopy fair enough, as I was saying it was just the impression that I'd heard.

I would really, really suggest that people intending to read law think about it very carefully.

The number of pupillages and training contracts available are at historic lows, at the firm I'm at (yeah I've had to go in house middle office bastarding) we have people with post grad qualifications as paralegals on around £12,000  and that's not unusual.  Sure if you get a TC with a magic circle firm you can look forward to lots of money and no sleep (CC have 'sleep pods' so their juniors don't have to leave the office after a 17 hour day) but the odds are about the same as becoming a professional footballer.

[stevej]

I would really, really suggest that people intending to read law think about it very carefully.
...the odds are about the same as becoming a professional footballer.

And they don't make professional footballers shell out ~£10,000 for a year crash-course in legal practice football

[Monolith]

I know about 5 graduate entry Medicine students all of whom are very motivated. Why would it be presented as a disadvantage? Perhaps if one was a parent with young children otherwise I can't see any problems.

There's a 40 year old woman in my academic year doing architecture. She has a young girl and I know she's finding it a real struggle. How she'll fare in this forthcoming final year of the BA remains to be seen.

[Jaspersharpe]

This seems completely nonsensical. Having to prove ones innocence in order to receive compensation when there is no way of doing so:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/19/sion-jenkins-billiejo-murder-acquitted-compensation

[Mike Highbury]

This seems completely nonsensical. Having to prove ones innocence in order to receive compensation when there is no way of doing so:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/19/sion-jenkins-billiejo-murder-acquitted-compensation

I love the irrational and this one sits nicely between here and Don't fuck with the filth.

[Jaspersharpe]

Scamming cunts. 

[slackline]

This seems completely nonsensical. Having to prove ones innocence in order to receive compensation when there is no way of doing so:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/19/sion-jenkins-billiejo-murder-acquitted-compensation

I'm sure Slopes or Ru might provide greater insight, but doesn't the law state (along the lines of) that individuals are "Innocent until proven guilty"?  Thus if they are unable to find him guilty then he is by definition innocent and entitled to compensation for being wrongfully convicted. 

Although I'm sure its not as simple as that. 

[Jaspersharpe]

I would have thought that was far too logical for the British "justice" system slackers.

[aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB]

By Toutatis - the Sky is falling!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/7952441/Quelle-horreur-Asterix-surrenders-to-McDonalds.html

As might say, «ALEA IACTA ESTRO»

[aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB]

Love a bit of poetic justice

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4663646.stm

Shame he didn't take any more out.

ditto.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11020599

And whatever the "lack of props" is to the bloke who thought yanking the animal's tail was a good idea, causing it to panic further and collapse down the terrace crushing people as well.



(The only problem I can see here is the fact the most seriously injured appears to be a ten-year old)

[tomtom]

What a fcuking spanner:

http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/news/Scrap-metal-theft-suspect-lucky-s-morgue-60-000-volt-shock/article-2550061-detail/article.html