[Sloper]

Absolutely, much easier to avoid the facts and dodge the issue.

Powell was wrong on immigration and his views are routinely presented as evidence as him being a racist, indeed this interpretation is not wholly wrong; one however should take this 'evidence' and weigh it against the larger corpus of evidence before reaching a conclusion.

One should also take account of the period in which the reference was made, it would be quite wrong to view a 1960 quote through the lense of 2009 standards; take for example Shakespeare's portrayal of jews, or of Dicken's stereotyping. 

Powell is a hate figure of the left for a number of reasons, but let's not forget that one of the reasons that he was ostraised by the Tories was that he exhorted people to vote Labour because they were anti Europe as opposed to Grocer's pro common market stance.

[john horscroft]

Context is important Sloper, so let me give you some.  I lived through the Powell era and I remember how his pronouncements were pounced upon and repeated by racists.  Lots of my classmates saw him as a hero and weren't above taking the most extreme measures to show their support.  The oft repeated line that Enoch Powell was a man of intellect damns him in my eyes.  He should have realised the effect his words would have.  To suggest that his views could be excused because of the era is to suggest that the sixties and seventies were the dark ages.  Mate, that's bunk.  We knew what was racist and we knew a racist when we saw one. 

Powell gave succour to the scum for whom beating someone because of the colour of their skin was an evenings entertainment.  Who gives a shit about his intellect?

jh

[Sloper]

I'm not disputing that the speech gave succour to the racist thugs or that their interpretation was wholly wrong, and I'm not seeking to create a revisionist text: he expressed a view that mass immigration was a bad thing and that based on the information he chose to consider that multi culturalism would never work.  I take a very different view, but the evidential base, eg the US which had a history which in the 50's we did not was a valid one.

However with the greatest respect, the thrust of your argument and your logic is massively flawed.  If one's words are used by another for a purpose other than intended then one bears no responsibility for that. 

Yes Powell should have foreseen that his words could have been used by violent racists, that is undoubtably true however this is not reason enough to define him as a racist for the  evidence that Powell was a racist is dwarfed by the evidence to the contrary. 

By your logic Gordon Brown; for using the phrase 'British jobs for British workers' is a racist supporter of the BNP.  This is of course fucking nonsense.

[Jaspersharpe]

Thing is though, Hannan knows that the generally held public perception is that Enoch Powell was a racist. Whether or not that was the case is secondary to the fact that by saying he was a central figure in shaping his politics, Hannan is either being very stupid by thinking that people will look any further than the generally held public perception or perhaps being very stupid by knowingly showing allegiance to someone who the public thinks of as racist because he's trying to build popularity with the BNP / UKIP sympathisers. Whatever, he's just a cunt.

[Sloper]

Hanan's main political objective is to advance his image as a politician.

As for your last point, I think you could be right, but then again I don't know much about his views. 

Hanan is as mainstream Tory as Denis Skinner is mainstream Labour.

[tomtom]

I think you're partly missing the point of Johns post Sloper,
Its about who listens to what you say and what they do in reaction to it - how influential it is...

However with the greatest respect, the thrust of your argument and your logic is massively flawed.  If one's words are used by another for a purpose other than intended then one bears no responsibility for that.

If you are trying to lead/change the country then of course you have to be responsible for what you say - because people will act upon it. With the power comes responsibility.....

[Sloper]

I'm not missing the point of it at all, I know exactly what John is seeking to suggest, it's the shite old reductive syllogism

The NF were racists who used Enoch's speach to justify their actions,
Therefore Powell was a racist
Because Powell was a Tory, Tories are racist.

Of course with power comes responsibility, more so with the press than the politician (which is of course the source of the phrase) and Powell should have been aware of the likely consequences; in terms of how the morons might / would interpret his speech. That is a point only an idiot would try to deny.

I hold Gordon Brown in utter contempt as a politician, I do not know him but I would assume that he has decent morals and mores and is fundamentally opposed to racism and racists, how then can he use the phrase that he did?

[tomtom]

                                                                                                                                 
I'm drawing a line under this now...... or its destined for the shitheap.... (ah new thread materialised here)..  back to DaNews

Pissed up twat...

[jern]

Now, I'm as filthy minded as the next man but I struggle to see how these could give anyone wood.....

[Sloper]

It's worse than that they're clearly displaying a sapphic threesome

[Jaspersharpe]

As it's The Mail it's difficult to tell whether some of the comments are serious or not. Either way they're fucking funny.

[jern]

He said: 'I demanded to see the shop manager and, during a heated exchange, my wife became quite distressed and had to sit down in the car park.'

I would LOVE to have been that shop manager........

[Jaspersharpe]

As someone said on the comments, she probably went outside to get away from her complete tool of a husband who was embarrassing her and the kids beyond comprehension.

[jern]

Indeed, probably hoping somone would drive over her head in a Humvee as she sat in the middle of the carpark.

[Will Hunt]

Imagine what his outrage will be when he finds out that the lemon is also a man.

[GCW]

Cup of tea?

[dave]

whats he ever done at the Tor? fuck all.

[Jaspersharpe]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/mediamonkeyblog/2009/sep/01/express-ant-dec-headline-error

[Sloper]

That's going to sting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/8231007.stm

[SA Chris]

yeeeeeeurg.

Guess he had rope wrapped around his hand while he was getting towed and then fell off. Silly thing to do, somethign they warn you about in waterskiing/wakeboarding 101.

[SA Chris]

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1381716?UserKey=

Aberdeen gets floods. Worst rain in a long time, and lets face it, competition is fierce.

[Joepicalli]

Now, I'm as filthy minded as the next man but I struggle to see how these could give anyone wood.....

OHHH GOD NGHNNNNN FUCK FUCK YEAH YEAH OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH.
All of a sudden I feel relieved and yet slightly ashamed.
Brilliant link, but a NSFW warning would have helped Jern.

[dave]

I bet this is a barrel of laughs

[rginns]

One bus company owner has threatened to set his vehicles alight in protest.

slightly counterproductive??

[slackline]

Nothing like a bit of statistical spin