[Luke Owens]

I've climbed outdoors on vertical limestone for 3 years and only now have I started sport climbing indoors. Bouldering wise my outdoor grades roughly match my indoor grades.

I've redpointed up to 7b+ outdoors and now I'm climbing indoors I'm struggling to get up 6c's and steep 6b's!

I'm aware it's going to be mainly due the different style but I don't seem to get pumped indoors more of a case of I'm climbing fine, maybe a light pump then out of nowhere I'm too powered out to move, then when I'm off it's almost like painful cramp in my forearms rather than a pump. Is this normal?

It's not even like I have the chance to fight a pump and carry on it's litrally a complete shutdown. One of the 6b+'s I tried last night I did about 3 easy moves then it went very steep on good holds and I could barely mange one move, I couldn't even pull back on to finish the route.

None of my climbing mates seem to have this problem and they've spent all year outdoors with me climbing the same routes.

For the last couple of months or so I've tried to just stick at it and try my best indoors but progress seems very slow, and it feels like i'm not really tackling this the best way I can. Due to falling off constantly i'm not really getting a considerable amount of volume in and spend most of the evening cramped up, which probably doesn't help.

I'm guessing I just need to drop the grade even lower and get milage in to solve the problem? Unfortunately steep routes at the wall don't go much lower than 6b+ though.

Any idea's?

Cheers

Edit: This needs moving to the training forum, sorry.

[Rocksteady]

This has happened to me before, usually as a result of:

(1) Training power on the day before; and/or
(2) Not warming up effectively - i.e. getting on something too hard too early in the session.

Not that I've been climbing well on vertical limestone in the meantime.

[SA Chris]

I don't climb anywhere near the same amount as you, but climbing indoors I get the same thing. Afraid I've got no answer as to why though, possibly overgripping or not warming up? I always just assumed it was because I sucked.

For me climbing indoors the difficulty is more a factor of the steepness than the given grade.

[Muenchener]

I have the same problem, but I think it's a question of climbing style. Outdoors: redpoint 6c+, but only if it's a three bolt fingery boulder problem with no endurance required.

Indoors: everything is brutally pumpy, the three bolt fingery boulder problem "route" doesn't exist, I struggle at 6b.

[Muenchener]

(2) Not warming up effectively - i.e. getting on something too hard too early in the session.

Yep, I sometimes make that mistake too. Flash pump, end of session, the only remaining options are easy mileage or falling practice.

[cheque]

I always take the painful cramp feeling in the forearms that you mention as a sign that I've climbed when I should have rested Luke.

From your Power Club posts it looks like you're going to the wall after two or even three straight days of strength training. It's probably unrealistic to expect high performance on powerful routes in those circumstances!

[Luke Owens]

I always take the painful cramp feeling in the forearms that you mention as a sign that I've climbed when I should have rested Luke.

From your Power Club posts it looks like you're going to the wall after two or even three straight days of strength training. It's probably unrealistic to expect high performance on powerful routes in those circumstances!

You're probably right, I always train tired. Maybe I expect too much of myself?

I never have any problem trying hard, or getting psyched to train so that probably results in me doing too much.

I didn't really feel my 30 minute lunch time strength sessions were tiring me out, but I guess they must be!

I don't climb anywhere near the same amount as you, but climbing indoors I get the same thing. Afraid I've got no answer as to why though, possibly overgripping or not warming up? I always just assumed it was because I sucked.

For me climbing indoors the difficulty is more a factor of the steepness than the given grade.

This has happened to me before, usually as a result of:

(1) Training power on the day before; and/or
(2) Not warming up effectively - i.e. getting on something too hard too early in the session.

Not that I've been climbing well on vertical limestone in the meantime.

I don't think I warm up properly either. Maybe a couple of easy routes before trying something harder. I've never had an issue with short warm ups outdoors but i'll give it a go warming up for longer indoors. Cheers!

[Ti_pin_man]

from the description it sounds like your engine is out of fuel, maybe look at eating and resting within the training you do.

[Sasquatch]

I always take the painful cramp feeling in the forearms that you mention as a sign that I've climbed when I should have rested Luke.

From your Power Club posts it looks like you're going to the wall after two or even three straight days of strength training. It's probably unrealistic to expect high performance on powerful routes in those circumstances!

 But with the caveat that it is possible to perform and train at extremely high volumes if you have spent the time getting your body used to that volume.  You've considerably upped the training volume in the last 1-2 months, and your body is almost assuredly not adapted yet.  It takes YEARS for the body to adapt.  As such be aware that if you persist in training at this volume, you will be walking a VERY fine line between overuse injuries and benefits. Pay extra close attention to the signs your body will give you (such as this one).   Also, when doing heavy volume like this, plan rest weeks where you intentionally take an easier week.  Makes a huge difference for your body.

[Doylo]

The answer is indoor routes are nails. Every holds small compared to outdoors and nowhere to hide.

[SEDur]

Prepare for a lecture.

All of the above.

I found almost the same thing. I spent the summer bouldering on limestone every other day, which was effectively strength training for me (being weak as a kittens tail). When I started hitting the fig8 circuits indoors in November to improve Ancap (working/lapping at my limit and higher), I found that I would just power out after a few laps, and hitting a move that was hard for what I was doing, but was perfectly fine in isolation/short 'problem' style. After a few goes (with adequate rest) at trying to make the sections link, i was totally fucked but not pumped. Just powered out.

I changed my eating habits; I now eat far less crap, but I don't avoid carbs at all. I started having some carbs before climbing, and some recovery afterwords (be it a crappy shake or a small meal, usually a small portion of last-nights dinner). There are a ton of studies out there (read that Matt Fitzgerald book), that suggest a high amount of carbs improve endurance sport performance. Moderate that for climbing and be sensible, and i don't think you need to eliminate carbs, but definitely up the whole grains and have less processed stuff.
I think there is also an element of adaptation; if you have climbed long enough for your body to have adapted properly, your energy system won't have to work as hard to make up for how hard you are having to work. But that is for another topic. Oh, and I have lost a little weight.

I made my warmups slightly shorter, but its still reasonably intense (not climbing). I then ramp up the grades pyramid style for warming my fingers up.

I kept working volume. Quite often i dropped the intensity very low, and would spend an indoor session playing games like 'the floor is lava, but do the whole blue circuit'. I also kept working through the fig8s at the walls i was going to, as well as having the odd session bouldering past my on-sight limit (it will go in 4 or 5 tries, try and do the circuit stuff).

I started doing core workouts every couple days, doing sort-of-super-sets. I also started going for a 30min run doing hill reps, but that is more recent. Outside of that i have never done a cardio/endurance sport in my life (unless you count climbing).

Due to Uni, i have had to cut back my number of sessions to 3 or so a week, usually Thursday/Tuesday Saturday/Sunday but something Tuesday Thursday Saturday Sunday. Thursday ends up being more like active rest though, as i'm helping club members most of the time.

I make sure i have good rest days. I found that more rest helped me recover better, but i would try to avoid more then 3 days off, unless we had a coursework deadline. I also make sure my rest is good quality, and my sleep is fairly regular.


Somewhere in there, I have managed to push my indoor fig8 route grade from 6cish to 7b/+ (the one at the works) and my boulder grades have steadied at around V6-7 (at the climbing station, for what its worth). But the problem isn't totally cured. I don't tend to get really pumped unless I drop the intensity slightly to 6cish-7a and go till failure.

I think there is a link between boosting your ancap, and fixing your aerocap. These results are neither conclusive or particularly 'science', but short term results show improvement; this is at the cost of some bouldering power though.


Hope this helps 

TLDR
Eat right (eat some carbs)!
Warm up lots!
Drop Intensity, and do loads.

[Luke Owens]

I think there is a link between boosting your ancap, and fixing your aerocap. These results are neither conclusive or particularly 'science', but short term results show improvement; this is at the cost of some bouldering power though.


Hope this helps 

TLDR
Eat right (eat some carbs)!
Warm up lots!
Drop Intensity, and do loads.

Sorry SEDur I thought I had replied to this! It was a great post, really insightful, thanks!

So, you felt increasing the Aerocap workouts with volume helped out with the powering out dilemma in short? How do you split your AnCap and Aerocap workouts? Different sessions for each or split sessions?

I think I need to do more volume, when I'm at the wall I build up slowly for example yesterday evening I did:

5+, 6a, 5+, 5+, 6b+, 6a+, 6a, 6a, 6b, 6c...

Then got on a big juggy 6c+ roof and got completely powered out and my forearms were actually in pain with cramp. I tried it again and the same thing happend then I had to call it day as I was completely drained of life.

I experimented with resting before a wall session and doing strength training the day before.

This is a question for everyone, which is more beneficial:

1. Training Strength the day before the wall and then when at the wall not having as good of a routes session.

2. Resting the day before the wall and then having a better routes session.

Obviously the first means I end up "doing" more but it is at the sacrifice of doing more at the wall the day after.

My weeks training at the moment look something like this:

Session 1: Strength - Usually Deadhangs (Weighted or Un-Weighted on a weakness like slopers)

Session 2: Strength - Offset Pullups or weights/core in the work gym.

Session 3: Wall Session - Something like the above (5+, 6a, 5+, 5+, 6b+, 6a+, 6a, 6a, 6b, 6c) which usually ends in hitting a powered out brick wall.

Session 4: Aerocap - 30 minutes (I'll try and fit this in somewhere in the week.)

Session 5: Strength - Full day Bouldering outdoors at the weekend trying stuff at my limit.

I'm wondering whether I'm getting the most out of the week am I missing AnCap completely? Is the routes session an AnCap or AeroPow session? I ask this as I'm doing quite a bit of volume before I end up powering out.

Correct me if I'm wrong but is the breakdown of the week as energy systems trained, this:

AnPow x 3
AeroPow x 1
AeroCap x 1

[Robsons]

Hi Luke,

Sounds familiar when you do a lot of strength and power sessions with no aerocap or conditioning before jumping on anaerobic sessions.
After months of bouldering, when I return to routes I find a similar pump approach - it almost feels like an injury?

So, before you bother with your power endurance sessions, condition your body.
1. Yes warm up well
2. Less strength work
3. loads of antags
4. Cardio work and loads of low level climbing - a really solid base of building your aerobic capacity - capillarisation. Some really low level climbing, avoiding any pump at all - staying on a wall for 15 or so mins (up to 25, but v. boring)...prepare your body for the pump.
Also, increase your stretching (once warmed - after a session).
As aforementioned - you are powering out your body though. 3 strength sessions and then hitting power endurance...your body will burn out.
If you don't want to periodise - drop one or two strength sessions and add an aerocap session and an anaerobic session.

Obviously, this depends on your goals though...

[Luke Owens]

Hi Luke,

Sounds familiar when you do a lot of strength and power sessions with no aerocap or conditioning before jumping on anaerobic sessions.
After months of bouldering, when I return to routes I find a similar pump approach - it almost feels like an injury?

So, before you bother with your power endurance sessions, condition your body.
1. Yes warm up well
2. Less strength work
3. loads of antags
4. Cardio work and loads of low level climbing - a really solid base of building your aerobic capacity - capillarisation. Some really low level climbing, avoiding any pump at all - staying on a wall for 15 or so mins (up to 25, but v. boring)...prepare your body for the pump.
Also, increase your stretching (once warmed - after a session).
As aforementioned - you are powering out your body though. 3 strength sessions and then hitting power endurance...your body will burn out.
If you don't want to periodise - drop one or two strength sessions and add an aerocap session and an anaerobic session.

Obviously, this depends on your goals though...

I've been on routes all Summer but they have been no more than say 20 moves long, 10 - 20metres. I was getting up them with grim determination a lot of the time. i.e I could never really use rest positions on my hardest redpoints. I guess this just trained PE all the time. Never really did any Aerocap training so I feel like I don't have any sort of Aerobic base fitness.

Yeah, It definetly feels like an injury it's that bad!

I'll add in some more Aerocap sessions as these can be done at the end of a session as well.

As for goals, this is a difficult one. Mainly I just have sport goals and I used to think my weakness was strength related, but I have bouldered up to 7A+ and have redpointed up to 7b+ so I don't think i'm weak for the sport grades i've climbed.

I've been into bouldering more than ever lately so I guess I want to progress in both Sport and Bouldering. That's the reason for the strength sessions as well as the Aero/Anerobic sessions.

Cheers

[Sasquatch]

It looks like you are not used to doing that volume of forearm work (even if its easy climbing) and after 10 routes you're knackered regardless of grade. How tall is your wall?  are you stacking routes(i.e. doing them back to back)?

As for goals, this is a difficult one. Mainly I just have sport goals and I used to think my weakness was strength related, but I have bouldered up to 7A+ and have redpointed up to 7b+ so I don't think i'm weak for the sport grades i've climbed.

In my experience this is pretty balanced, so you're not strong or weak for the grades, just middle ground.  If your main goal is sport, I'd say look at what types of routes you'd be aiming for next summer, and use that as your guide. 

I've been on routes all Summer but they have been no more than say 20 moves long, 10 - 20metres.

So if this is what you expect for next summer, then I'd probably go with an 8 week session of mainly aerocap. Workouts like this maybe:
Day 1 rest
Day 2 max hangs in AM or at lunch, then 30 min Aerocap in evening
Day 3 Aerocap starting at 30 and building up each week to 60+by the end of 8 weeks
Day 4 Wall session / ancap(on the long end of it though 2-4min sets with good rest)
Day 5 Aerocap 30-45min
Day 6-7 Weekend boulder outside have fun

Then do a 4 week AnCap cycle, then back to Aerocap for another 8 week, then ancap before summer.

My $.02

[skelf]

Routes outdoors are very rarely as continually intense as the same grade of route indoors.
Most routes outdoors will have a reasonable hold somewhere that you can get something back on. However indoors if you have a panel thats the same steepness all the way up, with smallish holds fairly well spaced then it's going to be a proper pumper!

Time to hit the 4x4's

[Luke Owens]

It looks like you are not used to doing that volume of forearm work (even if its easy climbing) and after 10 routes you're knackered regardless of grade. How tall is your wall?  are you stacking routes(i.e. doing them back to back)?

As for goals, this is a difficult one. Mainly I just have sport goals and I used to think my weakness was strength related, but I have bouldered up to 7A+ and have redpointed up to 7b+ so I don't think i'm weak for the sport grades i've climbed.

In my experience this is pretty balanced, so you're not strong or weak for the grades, just middle ground.  If your main goal is sport, I'd say look at what types of routes you'd be aiming for next summer, and use that as your guide. 

I've been on routes all Summer but they have been no more than say 20 moves long, 10 - 20metres.

So if this is what you expect for next summer, then I'd probably go with an 8 week session of mainly aerocap. Workouts like this maybe:
Day 1 rest
Day 2 max hangs in AM or at lunch, then 30 min Aerocap in evening
Day 3 Aerocap starting at 30 and building up each week to 60+by the end of 8 weeks
Day 4 Wall session / ancap(on the long end of it though 2-4min sets with good rest)
Day 5 Aerocap 30-45min
Day 6-7 Weekend boulder outside have fun

Then do a 4 week AnCap cycle, then back to Aerocap for another 8 week, then ancap before summer.

My $.02

Wall is only about 15m tall. Just do alternate tie ins with a friend. He goes I go etc. Then after about 10 routes i'm boxed!

Yeah, that is the plan again for next summer. Thanks Sasquatch that plan sounds great. Going to increase the Aerocap for sure!

On the AnCap cycle would you drop the Aerocap completely or just to one session a week? How many AnCap sessions a week then, 2/3?

Will report back after the Aerocap cycle.

Cheers

[Doylo]

Routes outdoors are very rarely as continually intense as the same grade of route indoors.
Most routes outdoors will have a reasonable hold somewhere that you can get something back on. However indoors if you have a panel thats the same steepness all the way up, with smallish holds fairly well spaced then it's going to be a proper pumper!

Time to hit the 4x4's

Yes

[Luke Owens]

Yes

Yes? 4x4's?

[skelf]

4x4 aka roped laps aka intervals on a rope.

Pick a fingery route that you think you could do twice. ( fingery so that it his the forearms.)
Do it 4 times, doesn't matter if you are failing on the 3rd or 4th go. Get back on quickly and complete the set while pumped. Repeat 4 times. Don't feel disheartened if you struggle to complete this, if you are really struggling / just fail then it's at the right intensity. Probably want to start with once a week for a couple of weeks then go up to twice a week.

 Learning to climb and clip whilst you are utterly boxed will help on the harder more intense routes, and you be fitter so it will feel easier anyway.

( or you could do foot on ladders on the campus board but I think 4x4's are better if you can get to a wall)

Think this would fall under ancap in ukb training speak, although I'm still getting my head round all that. Good old fashioned power endurance !

[Luke Owens]

4x4 aka roped laps aka intervals on a rope.

Cheers, I will add these to the AnCap phase!

This is a question to everyone really. In Muenchener's other thread "Steep ARC/aerocap?" http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,23424.0.html

His first post got me thinking when he said:

So what's likely to be the best way forward? Stick to the vertical for now, on the basis that a capillary is a capillary and it doesn't matter how it got there?

As long as the desired effect is being achieved in the forearm does it matter how the aerocap is done? I currently do mine on a fingerboard with my feet on a chair. Feels the same in the forearms as traversing in the climbing wall but in reality it's not similar at all.

Also, is it possible to do TOO much aerocap training?

Cheers

[siderunner]

One observation that I'm surprised others haven't made: your described roped session schedule is a bit odd ...

The way you described it you're jumping on 6c and 6c+ as your 10th and 11th route. The prior 9 routes are going waaaay beyond a warmup, you're effectively mid way through a decent endurance session then you decide to leap onto strength and PE-based climbing. The inevitable lack of strength/energy is obviously exacerbated by the fact that this is your 3rd or 4th day on.

Overall I think you can't decide whether you want volume or quality in the session. You're probably kind of thinking of it as volume but then getting bored / keen to get some better ticks / wanting to be more challenged and changing horses mid-stream.

If you want to combine harder climbing and volume in one session, it makes more sense to do a route progression like: 5+, 6a, 6b, 6b+, 6c, 6c+ (perhaps just failing), 6b+, 6b, 6b, 6b, 6a+, 6a [ , … ].  That way you're hitting the hardest routes at 5th and 6th, well-warmed up but hopefully not tired, and then working down through 6 (or many more if possible) easier routes as you're getting tired.

A challenge to the ego here is that you could end up falling off a 6a because you're toasted - there are a few climbers I know who couldn't accept that without leaving in a foul mood    I try to see it as a sign of a good session i.e. I really couldn't have done more!

[SEDur]

More recently I have been doing sessions with a touch of both, but more of one then the other.
The mix is dependent on rest, sleep, how I have eaten and all the rest as I have said before.

If I am well rested and I heave eaten a fairly decent amount of carbs, I will warm up and work through more of an Aero style circuit. I will then progress trough difficulty and fast as my body can handle, while managing pump, until I am closer to top-en PE/SE. If I am having a much better day, I will try and stick to longer harder problems i.e. 10+ move problems in the V6+ circuits.
When the power starts to go, I will drop the intensity fairly quickly, and work through something with consistent but easier moves with fairly consistent grips i.e. small 'finger jugs'.
That is more preference, because I don't like to climb on large juggy holds.

I have started (since writing my reply) to do more and more on 45degree project boards, and I think lapping sets of problems on these will a good thing to aim for at the very top end of PE/SE. But definitely in a few training cycles time. They seem better for working weaknesses, and working much harder.

[Sasquatch]

As long as the desired effect is being achieved in the forearm does it matter how the aerocap is done? I currently do mine on a fingerboard with my feet on a chair. Feels the same in the forearms as traversing in the climbing wall but in reality it's not similar at all.

Also, is it possible to do TOO much aerocap training?

If your only goal is to increase the capillarization in the arms, then no it doesn't matter.  If you are aiming to be a better climber, then yes it matters.  Doing Aerocap on a wall means you're effectively increasing your total climbing volume by a huge amount.  This will go a LONG way towards improving flow and comfort in the vertical terrain. 

And yes it is possible, but if you start with where you're currently at and add no more than 10%/week you should be fine continuing until you're doing about 15+ hours a week like the pros

On the AnCap cycle would you drop the Aerocap completely or just to one session a week? How many AnCap sessions a week then, 2/3?

Depends on what else you're doing, but I would keep up the aerocap, just use it as more of a recovery aid and continued movement training. 

If you look at slide4 of Binney's principles of training( http://ukbouldering.com/media/pdf/principlestraining.pdf) you can see the recovery periods for different types of training loads.  The beauty of Aerocap is that your body can recover quickly from it, so you can do it every day. 

[Fultonius]

Ok Luke,

I have been through the same grades as you and got a bit past them. I'm no super-hero climber, but I hope I can give some advice.

I think you are getting a little too caught up in the minutiae of climbing training jargon and not focussing enough on what it takes to become a better climber. As Siderunner has said, you are being unrealistic thinking you can "peak" at Fr6c+  on your 9th lead.

My old typical routes session (when I was redpointing 7b+) would consist of: 5+, 6a, 6a+, 6b, 6c+/7a, 7a, then either a short rest and another 7a/+ or drop the grade to 6b and do some volume.  I would focus on moving fast but efficiently, not over-gripping, improve footwork.

Later, when I was redpointing 7c+/8a I would still do similar routes sessions but just with the grades bumped up a bit.  - I have never climbed harder than 7b+ indoors, so don't worry too much if your indoors grades are a bit lower than outdoors.

Are you mainly redpointing or onsighting in these sessions?

Also, are you climbing with 1 other person or a group of 3?  I used to find that If I climbed in a 2 I'd need an extra 5 minutes rest every 3rd route or so; conversely, when climbing in group of 3 I felt it was the perfect amount of rest.

I also think you are not resting effectively between sessions. I never used to train more than 4 days a week, usually 3. I think you're training would be more efficient if you did less. Rest your way to 8a I say!  (there's nothing wrong with having a couple of weeks of slight overtraining, as long as it's followed by a chilled out week. During the heavy training period, don't expect to climb well!)