[Muenchener]

Dear Collective Wisdom of UKB

I am woefully endurance- and confidence-challenged on steep climbing, and have decided to try to address this with a winter campaign of ARC/aerocap training.

What I discovered on my first attempt today was that I can barely hang on for ten minutes on an even slightly overhanging wall on the hugest of huge jugs. On a vertical wall I can do twenty minutes no problem, without having to resort to huge jugs.

So what's likely to be the best way forward? Stick to the vertical for now, on the basis that a capillary is a capillary and it doesn't matter how it got there? Or persist with the steep stuff and gradually build up the time I can hang on?

[krymson]

Hi Muenchener,

I think we are about equal on vertical terrain but thuggy pump fests are my forte and ARC was the key ingredient to me. The best option would be if the overhang and vertical walls are connected so you could alternate between the two, getting on the vertical when you feel a burn coming on. Ten minutes is a good amount in my opinion so if that's not an option I believe you could just continue along that path as well.

The problem with sticking to only vertical terrain is that i found endurance on steep terrain involves not just the forearms but also fitness in the core, and techniques such as pulling with the feet, learning to rest and doing easy moves efficiently on steep terrain(with drop knees, heel hooks, toe hooks, momentum etc.) are just as important as the capillary gains in the forearm.

Anyways thats my experience(currently at the 6c-7a level on jugfests). Eagerly awaiting what the wads have to say about this.

[ghisino]

what's your strenght level?

without any scientificity, i claim that moving continuously for 15+ minutes on overhanging jugs without any form of rest or shake isn't as easy as it sounds.

although i don't do it often, i find it already quite challenging moving on holds i can 1-arm-hang for 30+ seconds.
Plus, i've yet to find a gym or board with huge jugs all over - at one point you are sort of forced to introduce a couple harder moves here and there...

i think you have two options
a) move to a vertical section or a rest position for a while when you are close to being exploded, get partially rested and then move back to the overhanging bit (what the previous post said)

b) wear a helium-inflated vest to take some weight off

[csl]

One thing I found useful for gaining endurance to get better on steep stuff/anything requiring shaking out on good holds was Recovery Intervals (think they are from Self Coached Climber/Climb Strong or something...)

2 minutes climbing, 1 minute resting on jug x4/6.

So from 12-20 minutes total per set.

If you are finding it hard to climb for 2 minutes then rest on a jug you could either move to a vertical wall to rest on a jug or just rest standing on the floor then try and build up to recovering on a jug.

[abarro81]

I would say use the angle that allows you to best control the intensity as desired. For me this is steep ground as on vert i find I end up over or underdoing the intensity and stuggling to make it continuous. The suggestion of alternating angle every few minutes is a good one too- start with 1 min on each making up a 20min block, and up thw time spent on steep ground until the whole 20 is on there

[shark]

Dear Collective Wisdom of UKB

I am woefully endurance- and confidence-challenged on steep climbing, and have decided to try to address this with a winter campaign of ARC/aerocap training.

What I discovered on my first attempt today was that I can barely hang on for ten minutes on an even slightly overhanging wall on the hugest of huge jugs. On a vertical wall I can do twenty minutes no problem, without having to resort to huge jugs.

So what's likely to be the best way forward? Stick to the vertical for now, on the basis that a capillary is a capillary and it doesn't matter how it got there? Or persist with the steep stuff and gradually build up the time I can hang on?

I found that continuous climbing just leads to a debilitating pump but that ARC didnt seem to do anything which is why I was so excited about the 20/10's. The genius of 20/10s is that it is challenging but you still can do a lot of moves ie typically 3 sets and 360 moves for me. I was never as fit as when I did a block of this leading to a trip to Kalymnos in 2011.     

[Muenchener]

what's your strength level?

Not sure I understand the question correctly.

I boulder around 6B, if that's what you meant, and have successfully projected circuits around 6c/7a on the same slightly overhanging boards on which I can stay on big jugs for ten minutes..

In real life I climb around 6c/+ on off-vertical, fingery, techy routes. But on steep 6b routes I find the moves straightforward but generally burn out quickly. Some of this I'm sure is technique/confidence: I tend to try to hang around to work things out and be certain of my sequence rather than going for obvious moves quickly, and that tires me out.

[Sasquatch]

b) wear a helium-inflated vest to take some weight off

I want a stealth version so I can show up with the wads and burn them off

[Sasquatch]

On a more serious note regarding the post topic.  So for me as primarily a boulderer, I find the ARC to be extremely helpful.  It feels like it's doing very little, but I find massive gains over the course of an 8 week cycle of doing them on off days.

My workout is quite simple:
5min on, 1 min off, 10 min on, 2 min off, 3x[15 min on, 3min off]. All easy traversing with no resting in corners and nothing on a vertical wall.  I generally aim to keep myself moving and on the lightly overhanging walls. 

If I can't get to the gym to do this workout, I'll do an ARC on my home wall (45degree board) of:
Warmup, then 8x[5min on/2min off]   The 5min on is climbing on good holds till I just barely start to feel the pump, then off and shake for 10 seconds, then back on and continue doing this for 5 min.  At first it felt like I was getting off the wall the whole time, but it quickly gets to where you are only getting off a couple of times. 

[ghisino]

what's your strength level?

Not sure I understand the question correctly.

just curious to know how comfortable you are hanging off 'jugs' to start with!
one thing is calling them jugs because they are big and incut, another being able to hang on them for XX secs with YY added weight.
and for this kind of 15 mins steep work one needs more x and y than it seems in the first place!
(out of the idea that strenght is, up to a point, the foundation over which the rest is built)

[Muenchener]

what's your strength level?

Not sure I understand the question correctly.

just curious to know how comfortable you are hanging off 'jugs' to start with!
one thing is calling them jugs because they are big and incut, another being able to hang on them for XX secs with YY added weight.

Ah, ok. No idea, never tried. I can do a pullup on a bar with bw + 30%, but have never tried static hangs with added weight.

[TobyD]

On a more serious note regarding the post topic.  So for me as primarily a boulderer, route climber, I find the ARC to be extremely helpful.  It feels like it's doing very little, but I find massive gains ...

I tend to tack it onto end of sessions, or sometimes on off days depending on time / convenience. I tend to vary it a bit in terms of time / intensity from roughly 10 - 25 minutes. Its quite a useful low-stress medium for developing movement skills, foot work, breathing etc as well. I believe that there is some evidence that it has an effect on max power as well, although this is very small. (And i am hardly the person to give anyone advice on power)

[siderunner]

Based on what you're trying to achieve - which I perceive as getting your leading level on overhangs up to the 6c/+ level you have on vert ... I'd recommend lapping on routes.

More specifically ... Take a sustained overhanging 6a+ (adjust to suit!) and lead it 4 times, with roughly 2 mins rest between each lead. Now belay your mate for 15 mins. Repeat all that 3 (or 4 if poss) times.

Advantages over ARC:
 - harder terrain is manageable, thus closer to your real goal (specificity)
 - because it's harder and you do it 4 times, youll automatically seek/discover small technique changes that increase efficiency (speed, momentum, drop knees, etc)
- it trains you to climb with some pump

I'm not saying don't do ARC, but this regime helped me a fair bit when I had a suitable partner/wall.


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[Muenchener]

Take a sustained overhanging 6a+ (adjust to suit!) and lead it 4 times, with roughly 2 mins rest between each lead. Now belay your mate for 15 mins. Repeat all that 3 (or 4 if poss) times.

... this regime helped me a fair bit when I had a suitable partner/wall.

Thanks. I'd like to try that, but am lacking the suitable partner/wall at the moment. I generally only tie a rope on at a wall about once a week and that tends to be midweek evenings when the wall is very busy. Whereas I can easily get up an hour early and fit in an ARC session before work.

[siderunner]

Yeah, partners are hard with that.

Sometimes you can persuade them to try 3 repeats on one route, which is  better than nothing and can get you both hooked.

Btw sorry I just saw someone had independently posted a similar suggestion on the other thread.

I find it ok on a busy wall: saves you losing time finding a free line once you're on yours! Maybe this is antisocial I guess, but then again a lot  of people do several different lines on one rope, and the rest times are no longer than most faffers take to change over.




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[Muenchener]

Thanks to all who offered advice.

Reached my short term goal for this training phase today: 16 minutes continuously on an overhanging wall. Very easy ground on huge jugs, but nevertheless: three weeks ago I could only manage eleven minutes on easy ground on huge jugs. Eight training sessions later I was still fairly comfortable at sixteen and could have gone longer if I hadn't had to collect M Jnr from swimming club.

Sticking with predominantly overhanging terrain was definitely the right decision. I assume three weeks can make some physiological difference, but not a huge amount; but I also learned loads about things like hanging on with minimal tension, how much it's possible to recover without a full hands-off rest, not being too fazed by being slightly pumped ...

Next on the agenda: trying to convince partners to do repeats on routes, have a go at 20/10s when training alone.