[csl]

Part of the problem is that no body, group or organisation is seen as being independent enough to deliver 'Facts'.

Yes, that's what i was getting at. It's far too easy to be a misinformed member of the public, since any attempt at giving statistics has an opposing version from the other side. Often, like in the case of the Brexit £350 million, its just deliberately quoting part of the information, but ignoring the rest of its context (value we get back, rebate etc).

[ghisino]

single political subject

I'm sorry, but again, why would we want this?

I would like your comment on what happened in France in 2005. Euro treaty "a" is rejected in a referendum, and a few months later treaty "a.1", a slightly modified version, gets approved - this time with no referendum, how weird...

Referendums are a bad idea,

Could be, but if they are held, going against their result Just a few months later is more is a joke. As if a country elected a "wrong" government and as a result the election was considered invalid by some kind of agency.
It is ok to go back on previous decisions, but that fast?

Concerning the rest: the vocabulary I employ is purposely provocative.
To me the most important issue is not that of taxes and services, but of power. In our daily lives we all experience some power asymmetry in business relations (small vs big, boss vs employee, etc).
I believe it is in the general interest that these asymmetries are mitigated and the only way I see is some unity of the small subjects (employees, small businesses, freelance's, etc).
It is in the general interest, because it promotes the existence of a middle class.

As for central banks: does bad use of a power justify putting it into unelected, unaccountable hands? If answered yes, then we may as well say that an enlightened dictatorship is the best possible form of government, don't we?

[tomtom]

Hasn't the EU done a metric (not imperial) fuck ton for workers rights/employment law/ minimum wages in the UK and across Europe?

I know you're being provocative, but the real dangers in terms of organisations imho is from big oil/pharma/etc.. Companies with massive vested interests than the ECB.

the EU is fundamentally socialist (takes from the richer states to give to the poor - tries to enable a level playing field across all countries and markets) - and the those that don't like socialism don't like the EU (very generally speaking) and I can see why not (not my own view). It's a classic case of big state vs small state and larger private sector. Tbh, given the metric fuck gigaton of neoliberalisation that's been going on in European countries over the last 15 years I'm amazed at times the EU still exists!

Mas Vino por favor

Pardone autocorrect bastardos!

[ghisino]

Socialist EU???

How can it be anything close to that when it imposes close-to-zero inflation and strict state budget? And when the single currency (which UK doesn't have) leaves salary moderation has the only competitiveness adjustment between member states?

EU has made a historically important recipe of "taking from the rich and giving to the poor" impossible.
(some inflation coupled with a generous state, competitiveness adjustments made mainly by currency exchange rate)

How can it be socialist when it imposes "structural reforms" (=dismantling job legislation and post ww2 constitutions) in exchange for anything it gives?

I appreciate it may look socialist when you look at it from your side of the channel, but compared to what Italy and France were some 20 years ago, it is as socialist as Milton Friedman

[tomtom]

True. My point doesn't fit a Marxist definition of socialism....

However I'd say that several fundamental Eu policies do take from the rich and give to the poor. At its base the member contributions - CAP (the eventual result may well be not to help - I think it's a terrible policy as it is) at its intended function. Common monetary policy (in eurozone) meant that poorer countries benifitted from cheaper lending than before (at the detriment to the richer countries standing) - though of course this ultimately led to Greece economic problems etc...

[tomtom]

:D

[ghisino]

Common monetary policy (in eurozone) meant that poorer countries benifitted from cheaper lending than before (at the detriment to the richer countries standing) - though of course this ultimately led to Greece economic problems etc...

Not so sure that it was 100% detrimental to the rich countries, at least if you look at private credit.

No exchange rate uncertainty means that a German bank, for instance, is more willing to lend to an Italian guy the money he needs to buy a German product.

There is an easy and direct example of this in the car industry, were most brands have their own credit institution ( volkswagen bank,etc)
 In the early 2000's, while still living in Italy, I suddenly saw many more nice German cars around than before. This was due to a new phenomenon: people getting their car with a leasing formula or a relatively long term, low interest rate credit...

[tomtom]

[tomtom]

Some commentary from Frakie Boyle about the politicians (and debate) for and against...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/brexit-referendum-campaigns-politicians

[erm]

Sorry - this long and I ramble.

As for central banks: does bad use of a power justify putting it into unelected, unaccountable hands? If answered yes, then we may as well say that an enlightened dictatorship is the best possible form of government, don't we?

Typically the government sets the targets for the central bank and then leaves them to it. I would argue that this is similar to how hospitals, the courts, air traffic control, etc do their jobs. Sure there are issues with how well each of these works but they are all in "unelected" hands and I prefer it that way because I think it works better than having it in directly political hands. My example here would be elected judges in the US and their impact on justice (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21613276-theyre-not-politicians-so-they-shouldnt-act-them-trouble-electing-judges). And I think it is difficult to brand this position as one in favour of dictatorship or, indeed, as politically right-wing.

Could be, but if they are held, going against their result Just a few months later is more is a joke. As if a country elected a "wrong" government and as a result the election was considered invalid by some kind of agency.
It is ok to go back on previous decisions, but that fast?

I would simple say that the referendum was a bad idea in the first place and it would have been better not to have it. The problem which it, and the new rules which say future treaty changes will require referendums, introduces is that we need to be able to make treaty change to keep up with the world we live in. It makes this dependent on the internal politics of a member state. Referendums have been used as protest votes or co-opted for other purposes. For example the question asked in the UK at the moment is do we want to member of the EU and if you listen to the leave campaign now, all you hear is "do you want to stop foreigners coming in". That is a small part of a bigger, harder, question, and it shouldn't be allowed to swing the vote.

On the subject of the "wrong government" it is a good point. Of course governments are normally bound by base law which limit what they can do and is often enforced by an unelected group (European Court of Human Rights anyone). This has an impact on how easily a government can be bad.

However, if I step back from the real world:
I would want to see all citizens making the choice to vote and ensuring that they were well informed before they did so. A basic knowledge in how the state functions, economics, current spend profile and actual outcomes (falling teen pregnancy, falling violent crime, climate change is real, etc). In this world people would pick "good governments", or rather it would be harder to deceive them into picking bad ones. This isn't the world we live, clearly, but that doesn't mean that I want to have more ways of screwing it up introduced.

(As an aside on the above paragraph - anyone notice that the 16/17 year olds which are allowed to vote on some questions seem to make better informed decisions than the population as a whole. Might have something to do with those school classes where they talk facts first and politics second. Just a though.)

Some commentary from Frakie Boyle about the politicians (and debate) for and against...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/brexit-referendum-campaigns-politicians

Saw it earlier and hated it. As with his other pieces on Scottish independence it just comes across, to me, as labeling the whole political system/all politicians as rotten, without ever feeling that an alternative has to be suggested. This seems to justify disengagement - which isn't going to make things improve. Better to light a candle...

[Jaspersharpe]

If only people had taken my Luton plan seriously ten years ago then we might have a more enlightened electorate. Unfortunately only lagers saw the genius of it and everyone else thought I was joking.

Not so funny now Farage has influenced British politics to the point where we're now voting on his policy despite him having no democratic mandate.

[tomtom]

glc

[Duma]

saw this on fb and thought it was very good

https://gowers.wordpress.com/2016/06/02/6172/

[ghisino]

Although i am british, i found éléments of resonance in this article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/

[shark]

Although i am british, i found éléments of resonance in this article

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/

Immigration and the economy are dominating the news but this is the issue I see as most critical ie is voting for long term political and economic self-determination a price worth paying for the short/medium term trauma that withdrawing will cause at a time when economic recovery is fragile.

Quite clear that for the EU that further political and economic integration is viewed as progress however out of kilter the member states are economically. This for example benefits Germany economically (low Euro) and at the other end of the spectrum Greece and its financial irresponsibility. We are also losing control over our legislative powers. Overall I would prefer maintaining a certain distance from the EU which I can see becoming increasingly sclerotic politically and economically. I see the UK competitive advantages in the World Economy such as creativity, entrepreneurship, flexibility being dragged down by being in the EU in its current form and the way it is "progressing"

 

[petejh]

.... this is the issue I see as most critical ie is voting for long term political and economic self-determination a price worth paying for the short/medium term trauma that withdrawing will cause at a time when economic recovery is fragile.

This.

I'm undecided but wavering toward brexit despite finding most of the leave camps' rhetoric appalling...

..while hoping leaving won't fuck too much with my euro sport trips. 

[Oldmanmatt]

So as a small business owner, hamstrung by excessive European legislation and oppressive workers rights; I should be agreeing with you?

I don't and I worked in Greece and with Greek companies upto 2012, still chat with former colleagues there (they don't recognise our media image of their plight, that's not to say they aren't in difficulty).

That short term bump you mentioned? Are you sure of it's brevity? Will it not not disproportionately affect the working class?
And, more importantly, surely that much vaunted independence is a mere mirage, that will evaporate under the glaring sun of trade negotiations?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[galpinos]

I see the UK competitive advantages in the World Economy such as creativity, entrepreneurship, flexibility being dragged down by being in the EU in its current form and the way it is "progressing"

Sounds good Shark but how exactly are these competitive advantages being dragged down?

[dave]

I see the UK competitive advantages in the World Economy such as creativity, entrepreneurship, flexibility being dragged down by being in the EU in its current form and the way it is "progressing"

Sounds good Shark but how exactly are these competitive advantages being dragged down?

By having to give employees annual leave, shit like that?

[TheTwig]

Seeing the 'polls' going in favour of Brexit is fucking depressing, honestly. If we leave there is nobody to protect us from the Tories and the New Labour types who want to privatise everything (look at how much success they are having already) and have a bonfire with our rights. I'm hoping that some of it is bravado from people who will see reason when they are looking at their scrap of paper, and we will vote to stay in by a knife-edge. It's like political russian roulette 

[petejh]

So as a small business owner, hamstrung by excessive European legislation and oppressive workers rights; I should be agreeing with you?

I don't and I worked in Greece and with Greek companies upto 2012, still chat with former colleagues there (they don't recognise our media image of their plight, that's not to say they aren't in difficulty).

You don't really say why you don't agree with Shark though.. other than some Greeks you know seem to be doing OK despite their difficulties.

That short term bump you mentioned? Are you sure of it's brevity? Will it not not disproportionately affect the working class?

Poor working class populations are disproportionately affected by any bumps in life. 'Don't be poor and working class* if it's possible not to be' is the only rational take-away that I can make out from human history; whichever political system's running the show. You can argue about fairness and welfare and I won't disagree.

*definitions of working class (and poor) may vary

And, more importantly, surely that much vaunted independence is a mere mirage, that will evaporate under the glaring sun of trade negotiations?

Are you sure, why? Are the potential long-term benefits of leaving the EU worth the potential costs? Wish I knew but the debate is so murky.

[dave]

Seeing the 'polls' going in favour of Brexit is fucking depressing,

Especially as the genesis of this whole farce was Tory infighting and Hameron's desire to bribe Tory voters not to defect to UKIP, and now the rest of us are dragged into this as collateral damage. The fucking cunt.

[Duncan campbell]

Seeing the 'polls' going in favour of Brexit is fucking depressing, honestly. If we leave there is nobody to protect us from the Tories and the New Labour types who want to privatise everything (look at how much success they are having already) and have a bonfire with our rights. I'm hoping that some of it is bravado from people who will see reason when they are looking at their scrap of paper, and we will vote to stay in by a knife-edge. It's like political russian roulette 

To begin with I reasoned that the Scots didn't vote for independence so there will be no way we'll vote to leave the EU because I perceived there to be much more scottish independance psyche than anti-Eu psyche. However, I'm starting to get a bad feeling about all this.

Fingers crossed the polls have ended up not being an accurate representation of how everyone will vote... 

[Johnny Brown]

The polls got very close just before the Scottish referendum too - it's just the media feeding frenzy. Ladbrokes still have it at 62% Remain.

In the last two referendums we have voted for the status quo. I don't see any clearer case for change this time so I'm pretty sure it'll be the same again.

[webbo]

Judging from the conversation in my local pub last night, it would seem that we'll be leaving.