[Stu Littlefair]

Let me be quite frank.

Matching your best ever onsight after taking time off in december, whilst on a trip in which you climb 6 days on, cannot be squared with a dip in performance.

It sounds to me like your bouldering has dropped a little, and you're tired and worn out from work and everything else. I think your physical level is probably fine, your activity level and training are probably fine but you're a bit too worn out from life to really put in max effort.

When I'm stressed at work I can get personal bests on endurance feats but simply can't bring myself to try hard enough for top-end bouldering. Don't worry about it. Carry on as normal*. when life gets a bit less hectic or stressful your bouldering level will bounce right back.

*Advice on more sleep and better diet options are worth considering.

[abarro81]

Stu talks sense and people saying that training 3 days midweek is extreme are wimps.. Though your job sounds tiring as fuck!

[mctrials23]

Hes training 3 days in a row midweek for 3 hours plus, going to the pub friday night and then climbing indoors again saturday and sunday. Thats coupled with probably not eating enough before training in the week as he is having dinner late at night. Hes then not getting enough sleep at the same time.

So hes climbing a lot, not resting much, not eating that well and not getting enough sleep. That coupled with a stressful job can't be a good thing. Overtraining isn't something that can be defined exactly as it differs hugely between people.

The volume of training he is doing is quite high no? Even if that volume was better spread over the week and he was eating at a good time and not stressed out and got plenty of sleep that would be quite a lot of climbing. It doesn't sound like he is doing mainly endurance stuff either.

[Duncan campbell]

More interesting responses... i defo dont measure myself against indoor grades usually but recently its pretty much all I have (I am not going well on the grit either right now) but i know how my body feels and it just doesnt feel as strong as it did before. but it could so easily be a bit of a trough - ive just never had that slow decline feeling... its usually more a quick drop off for a week or two before going back up.

T_B I never complained about the amount of sleep!  ive always eaten quite late and so does my dad but ill look into eating before - only issue is time for that really - by the time ive cooked and eaten i wont have much time  at the wall? also interesting chat about cutting down on sugar and pasta/bread - would be a tricky one for me but potentially a good call. I consume very little caffeine and can go weeks without having any without much trouble...

Stu and Barrows are probably right but Im keen to make my evening sessions more efficient though so think Ill look into that.

Once the evenings get lighter I'll start running out in the peak again so the strain on my body will drop. also hopefully wont have to climb indoors at the weekends too much in future either!

all interesting stuff to learn about!

[Lund]

The volume of training he is doing is quite high no?

No.

He's not doing too much - because he just peaked.  You can't peak if you do too much.  You don't peak.  You get worse.

You could argue that what he needs to do now is take a couple of weeks off to get his mind fresh, get some psyche back, re-evaluate his goals, and come back roaring, training even harder, focussing on his weaknesses with a laser like focus - so that he peaks again, rather than plateaus (by following the same program he has so far).

So many sub-elite athletes worry about overtraining.  It's a rare phenomenon.

[mctrials23]

Its not that uncommon and almost every trainer will tell you that the most important thing to do is rest enough when you are training. If you train once a week for 2 hours then you can't ramp that up to 5 days a week suddenly and not get the symptoms of overtraining. Overtraining is relative to what your body is capable of. An elite sport climber might be able to train 6 days a week and perform well every session but the average sport climber can't. Overtraining isn't just a physical issue either.

[mrjonathanr]

You are both right because you are using the term differently.
'Proper' overtraining is rare and serious. Overdoing it is quite common and whilst not as serious, not a great idea either. Managing rest better is in different degree the solution to both.

[filz]

Duncan for me in these cases it's useful to have some tests to assess my shape.

finger boarding is one where I see if my performance gets worse.

Even better I have some boulder problems and circuits of middle difficulty which I know well. And I know how I should feel climbing them when in good shape.
If I still can do them quite easily it's a lack of motivation. It happens after trips or reaching some goal.
If I struggle to climb them I need to rest.

[abarro81]

This is why it's nice to use overreaching to differentiate from overtraining. Pushing hard for a few weeks is not overtraining!
P.s. its not that high a vol of training, its more q high volume of working!

[bigtuboflard]

I may have missed it but not sure what age you are? I trained and climbed that sort of weekly frequency when I was younger and it felt fine; now it would likely finish me off. As others have said though look for variety in your training too and don't get too pulled in on the grades.


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[DAVETHOMAS90]

This is why it's nice to use overreaching to differentiate from overtraining. Pushing hard for a few weeks is not overtraining!
P.s. its not that high a vol of training, its more q high volume of working!

Yes, probably quite right!

I'm with Stu and Barrows here, various points above.

It's fair to say however, that many people train too much, through fear of not training enough.

Training is about increasing your capacity to do work, and at any point, that capacity is finite.

On your recent climbing trip, it sounds as though you were rested and relaxed. Although you climbed for six days, it was fun, and you were able to peak. I.e. you weren't spreading yourself too thinly.

That's the point at which I'd have celebrated with extra beer, cake or curry. In fact, I'll wad you a point for preparing for your successful trip well :-)

The problem with "peaks" is often we don't see them as that, and want to view them as the new benchmark. As such, we try to keep hold of them; we're trying to avoid the emotional impact of the drop off that follows. That is a defensive approach which encourages fear of failure and a lack of a more enthusiastic approach to new and more positive goals.

I thought this post was a very good point:

Duncan for me in these cases it's useful to have some tests to assess my shape.

finger boarding is one where I see if my performance gets worse.

Even better I have some boulder problems and circuits of middle difficulty which I know well. And I know how I should feel climbing them when in good shape.
If I still can do them quite easily it's a lack of motivation. It happens after trips or reaching some goal.
If I struggle to climb them I need to rest.

..allowing for a degree of objectivity, to assess where you're really at.

A suggestion I'd make - it's something I often find very hard to do, given that exercise seems as important to me as it is you - rather than ripping up everything you're doing to begin with, just try taking three days off - maybe some light recovery stuff or an easy jog; plan to crush at the weekend (maybe not so much booze on the Friday night ;-) ). Just try it as a short term experiment.

I often find that a bit anxiety provoking, because it means letting go of my disappointment about a recent drop in form, but you probably need to assess your apparent form in the context of the amount of work you are doing. The shift in emphasis is away from organising your training around where you've been, but towards where you want to go.

Good luck !

[jwi]

The problem with "peaks" is often we don't see them as that, and want to view them as the new benchmark. As such, we try to keep hold of them; we're trying to avoid the emotional impact of the drop off that follows. That is a defensive approach which encourages fear of failure and a lack of a more enthusiastic approach to new and more positive goals.

This.

And people. Overtraining is highly unlikely. I doubt Duncan would be able to get out of bed and get to work every day of the week if that's the case. Maybe overreaching, but that would surprise me as well, as most peoples “4 hours in the gym” seems to mostly consist of hanging around while doing very little climbing.

[tomtom]

To the OP - at the Works are you doing the same type of circuits/problems each visit? If I go to the wall three days on the bounce - I can firstly only manage 1-2 hours each time. Second, I vary what I do - e.g. day 1 loads of big holds large overhangs - big moves - works shoulders and core. Day 2 - crimpy vertical problems - work the fingers and Day 3 something different etc...

Isnt there also the adage of train until you just drop off your best - then stop. Many folk then have a cup of tea and get back on it 20-30 min later.. never sure if this helps you get better or not?

[a dense loner]

I'm quite surprised at the reactions saying stu and barrows are on the money. I think people are missing the point that doing a hard outside job 10 hours a day in the middle of winter is in no way good for anything to do with constant training.

[Stu Littlefair]

It stands to reason the job isn't helping. What do you want him to do? Quit the job cos he's dropped a bouldering grade? You're Dave McLeod and I claim my £10.

[twoshoes]

Slightly off-topic, mind if I ask what your job is Duncan?

[a dense loner]

I don't want him to do anything other than what I've suggested. You and Alex have said in a not very round about way to man up he's not over exerting himself at all it's hard to over exert yourself no one does it. I'll not say over reach. I'm saying he'll be fucked, so don't worry about it and don't do too much.

[Stu Littlefair]

I think we're saying the same thing; his life is leaving him fucked and he won't climb as well. Don't worry about it.

It doesn't mean he has to exercise less, it just means he's the next Paul Reeve.


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[a dense loner]

The poor guy!

[rodma]

I've seen many people have a delayed response to the fatigue of working/ training.

Once seen many people train too much, out of fear of not doing enough as others have said in this thread .

The hardest thing to handle though ( and to work out if this is the case) is if that dip in performance is not a dip, but just a return to your actual level, or the dip you should expect following an unsustainable unplanned peak. By unplanned I mean that you inadvertently created a peak, rather than intentionally riding that rollercoaster.

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[webbo]

Given all the varied opinions you've received on here I would pose the same question on the bike radar forum. Write both sets of answers down put them all in a hat, pick one out then go for it.

[Paul B]

Stu talks sense and people saying that training 3 days midweek is extreme are wimps.. Though your job sounds tiring as fuck!

I can't wait until you get one of those 'real' job things. You'll be amazed by what you just don't have time/energy for anymore.

Over-reached / Over-trained, does it really matter which here? The action in both is to do less (in varying degrees) until things are headed the correct direction?

Duncan - surely there's something else you like doing (or should be doing) other than climbing that can (temporarily) fill the void?

[Drew]

One thing which I don't think anyone else has mentioned, is not to compare your own progression with that of those around you, and certainly not Rob or Michaela! You have a different background to them both in terms of what level of training they've been exposed to previously, plus their current training sessions are far more focussed and targeted, as opposed to "doing some circuits, and a few laps on the circuit board". I can't remember the last time I saw Rob at the Works when he was just doing a circuit.

Create your own self-assessment sheet, and use that as your yardstick, not Rob permanently-psyched Greenwood, or Michaela the-machine Tracey.

And never pay any attention to indoor grades. Outdoor grades are bad enough, but indoors are a lottery.

[Duncan campbell]

Thanks for all the further replies everyone!

I ended up having a short 2 hour session at the foundry last night and think I felt a little better but only climbed new problems so can't tell for sure - my fingers certainly felt more up to speed. It did mean however I was home in good time and ate at a reasonable hour before then getting to bed early with lights out at 10:30

However, I am going to take the next three days off and do some life admin!

In answer to the various questions:

I'm 25, if I go to the works/foundry/wherever I tend to just go round trying to climb the hardest problems/routes I can I rarely try anything for an extended period in each night but will return to it at more sessions. I dont really vary hold type angle session to session as I just try various things within each session. basically very haphazard but also fun (until you stop improving)

I sort of feel that instead of peaking and then going back to my usual level that I peaked and am dropping below usual level. But my usual level was based on a less intensive working week - even though I used to build climbing walls which although was really hard physical work it was far from full-time and the rest of my time was spent either at home/climbing or walking around a nice warm hospital pushing beds around. before that I dossed around writing drivel for the other channel. plus i have only been below my usual level for maybe a month max - (this only applies to bouldering as obvs I matched my previous peak on my recent holiday) I probably just need to be more patient. I guess im just wanting to pre-empt this in case it is a trend and it affects my trad for the year!

Im now an environmental compliance officer (a whatnow?) for a wood recycling plant. Basically I walk around for much of the day sampling/taking readings/making sure the site isn't violating any regs. its rarely strenuous but I do a lot of walking and its just off the woodhead pass so up on the moors and flipping cold - today is the warmest its been in a while at 3 degrees! some of my time is spent in my office writing things up (going on UKB) - currently this is only heated by an electric convection heater so its not that warm in here.


Going forward Im going to try and make my evenings more efficient/effective/structured and probably have more weeks where I only climb tues/thurs. I reckon Ive sort of hit a peak from just climbing tons - E5 and 7c seem reasonable for this so maybe now I do actually have to at least be a little more structured...

Drew you make a good point there! I wasn't so much measuring progression against them as that would be ludicrous but they do both manage to climb a lot so maybe i didnt think i was doing too much...

will let y'all know how it goes!

[petejh]

You're only at the stage of dipping your toe in the waters of climbing angst. Wait until you start seriously projecting 8s and training for trips. You'll know you're fucked when you start seeking clarification on ukb about rest times for Ancap.