[fatboySlimfast]

Not posted for ages since dropping off as a moderator but this caught my eye when scanning the internet forums this morning
http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/news.php?id=5832
I dont really give a shit about the guidebook, I have my views on all that have been released over the years. I was shocked at the state of Burbage South a couple of weeks ago, all the old bullet holes having been eroded etc and I just thought is this a good idea to hold an event in an already overused venue like this? An overused park with parking problems already etc etc
Its essentially a commercial promotion even though no selling is happening on the day.
It just seems wrong to hold it at a natural venue, what about at a sheffield outdoor boulder instead and donate the money to a given inner city charity instead?

[slackline]

what about at a sheffield outdoor boulder instead and donate the money to a given inner city charity instead?

Already an event at Heeley that day.

[fatboySlimfast]

Not really the point slackers, politics man politics

[Johnny Brown]

Interesting. I think the concerns over erosion and parking are fair, though I can also see that there aren't many other suitable venues.

Events like this are in a bit of a grey area between group use (which is usually accepted) and commercial events (which typically aren't). Were it to be at Stanage I suspect it is exactly the kind of event the PDNPA would be seeking to profit from (and they may make moves on group users too).

As far as I know they haven't consulted the BMC on this, which begs the question if the landowners or land managers are aware. Fine if you get away with it, but it certainly has the potential to cause problems.

[mrjonathanr]

begs the question if the landowners or land managers are aware.

That was my thought, seems inappropriate to be commandeering the area for commercial gain.

[dave]

Just seen this, seems totally inappropriate for the venue.

[slackline]

begs the question if the landowners or land managers are aware.

That was my thought, seems inappropriate to be commandeering the area for commercial gain.

Adam has asked that over on UKC and received an answer.

[fatboySlimfast]

he did indeed ask the NT, but doesnt appear to of consulted anyone else..........

[slackline]

I don't think its appropriate but who else should have been consulted?  A UKB poll?

Is there any other venue which would be suited to such an event?  Cratcliffe/Robin-Hoods Stride, well thats a heavily used venue already, parking not great.  Roaches, ditto etc. etc.  I can't think of one I'd be happy to see this at myself anywhere in this country or any other.

Reminds me of when Mammut were out on Stanage for the weekend with top-ropes for people to "have a go" a year or two back.  Weather didn't play ball though, it was freezing cold and damp.  We sacked off climbing after one route and left feeling a bit sorry for the people who were going to be there for the remainder of the day freezing their knackers off underneath their down jackets with pretty much zero target audience turning up.

[fatboySlimfast]

I personally think no venue is suitable, hence why it has raised my ire somewhat. As Jb has said, why hasnt there been a quick conversation with Henry. I was just chatting to Will in the office and he has mentioned the appaling state of the main crag as well as the boulders.

[SamT]

To my mind - its not the venue that's the problem really, that's a bit of a red herring,  its the very concept of holding such an event.  Didn't know about the mammut event, but again, it just smacks of the commercialism that has hijacked climbing as a past time, as an escape,  and turned it into a commodity to be promoted, advertised, sold etc.

I still have Neil Greshams words ringing in my ears from a party back in the mid nineties, "Its good for the sport" 
(I cant quite remember what it pertained to - competitions/climbing walls or some such).

I cant stand it when I hear those words used for other past times, like caving (my other hobby).
To me , "its good for the sport" reads 
"its good for me as I'll be able to make some cash out of it, but the past time itself and particularly the natural venues it relies on will get completely fucked up"

Humbug.

[Johnny Brown]

I do agree with the concerns raised over commercialism. Although at best its a vague line in the sand, I think most of us draw it in a similar place. Guided parties and group use are not the same as events held purely to promote brands or products. Indoor walls are the place for these imho.

I think the suitability of the location will depend on how many people turn up and how they are managed. I doubt it is likely to be much worse than the average bank holiday/ freshers week crowd.

Usually the gritstone karma has a very good track record of dealing with these events itself via the weather, though in this case it looks like RF might have cheated a bit with a late call.

[Stubbs]

It's is freshers week this week as well, thankfully it's not bank holiday too, otherwise there might be some sort of punter perfect storm at the Burbage blocs!

[Dolly]

FBSF when you say appalling state of the crag do mean litter or erosion or both ?


Weather will be too hot- hopefully it will be midgy as well  - grit karma and all that

[dave]

I still have Neil Greshams words ringing in my ears from a party back in the mid nineties, "Its good for the sport" 
(I cant quite remember what it pertained to - competitions/climbing walls or some such).

I cant stand it when I hear those words used for other past times, like caving (my other hobby).
To me , "its good for the sport" reads 
"its good for me as I'll be able to make some cash out of it, but the past time itself and particularly the natural venues it relies on will get completely fucked up"

a-fucking-men to that brother.

[fatboySlimfast]

FBSF when you say appalling state of the crag do mean litter or erosion or both ?


Weather will be too hot- hopefully it will be midgy as well  - grit karma and all that

Will was saying that the routes were getting abused, covered in tick marks,blown out placements, hold erosion  etc on all the usual suspects.

[Offwidth]

Boulderers need to take a long hard look at themselves when it comes to the state of these boulders in the valley and on the crag. Overbrushing, mass over-use of chalk, not cleaning shoes, encouragement of poor style, people who should know better climbing easy problems in trainers and not enough challenge of all this bad behaviour are the real culprits.

When it comes to commercial interests I'm far more worried about some group use of our crags where terrible practice is on display at times (flailing up routes on top-ropes, bullying of kids to try things they dint want, route hogging, littering etc). Although this is a honeypot venue and  I agree what Rockfax did is in a grey area and talking to Henry would have been good (and some environmental briefing would have been nice) I cant see this anywhere high in an access priority list. It was also well advertised and permission was sought. I would like the access team to talk to Alan to ensure we can make access issues, especially conservation of heavily used areas, figure prominently in the new guide.

[slackline]

I know someone who went, they said there were about a dozen people there.

[lagerstarfish]

bugger

sounds like I missed out on a good chance to win a new pad

it's all about what I can get for myself, innit?

[Johnny Brown]

Boulderers need to take a long hard look at themselves when it comes to the state of these boulders in the valley and on the crag. Overbrushing, mass over-use of chalk, not cleaning shoes, encouragement of poor style, people who should know better climbing easy problems in trainers and not enough challenge of all this bad behaviour are the real culprits.

Firstluy, I think singling out 'boulderers' is unfair. And I'd narrow your list down to 'not enough challenge of all this bad behaviour'. Climbers in general just copy other climbers; in my experience good behaviour at the crag is solely governed by peer pressure. At easier venues like Burbage south and Cratcliffe you have a double whammy of large numbers coupled with a relative lack of more experienced climbers.

I would like the access team to talk to Alan to ensure we can make access issues, especially conservation of heavily used areas, figure prominently in the new guide.

I think it might be a bit late for this. The BMC reps have been consulted on a few specific issues, but nothing general. As above, I doubt it would make much difference anyhow. Look at font - the guides all suggest limiting chalk use, in favour of pof. Nobody does.

The erosion at Burbage South was discussed when we did the work on the landings at the Plantation and Curbar. The conclusion was we didn't really have the materials or expertise to tackle what is mainly peat erosion.

[Offwidth]

It's hardly unfair when I was talking about boulder problems at Burbage South. Its not most boulderers there but it is some and not all those causing problems are inexperienced (in the same way you will see people who should know better top-roping mates who lack the skills for Downhill Racer). This site makes what I see as very positive contributions in the attitudes displayed to bad ethical practice and its not so hard to continue this on the crag, I find most folk listen if you are not aggressive in an approach (and knobs who dont listen will probably remain that way whatever). I'd say about 1 in 4 visits I end up talking to someone (worst case being someone yonks ago with a wirebrush who had no idea it was an issue as he'd seen a star do it on a vid)

I really do doubt its too late to contact Alan to find out what he is doing on this and in any case its does no harm to ask. Stuff starting from the 10 commandments and specific mentions of the most damaged problems and ground areas and how it has happened and how we stop things getting worse would be a very positive inclusion.

[mrconners]

I am very wary of these commercial activities. Companies also run mtb sportives over jacobs ladder which just contributes to trashing the place even more efficiently.  They could be held in places which are much less sensitive or even better, not at all.

[slackline]

UKB Site sponsors The BMC are holding a similar event at Stanage w/end June 28^th/29^th.

I don't think Stanage is any more suitable for these events than Burbage (they all see enough traffic as it is, no need accentuate it), but its unclear at the moment if the non-climbing activities mentioned will be held at North Lees Campsite (after all there is limited space for lecture/slide-show in Robin Hoods Cave).

[Grubes]

does this not go against there own recommendations of avoiding crowd hogging?

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/Freshers-meet-info-page

1) Think about your choice of venue carefully – obvious things need to be considered like the number of easy routes available, but also think about the size of your group and whether it’s appropriate for the size of the crag.
This can be easier said than done with a large group and there aren’t many crags that will accommodate big groups without impacting on others – the best solution here is to split into two or more smaller groups and each visit different crags.

Would a eastern edges wide meet be a better option?

[danm]

I understand your concern guys, but I think if you are going to bring a load of extra people to a crag, Stanage is probably the place to do it. It can absorb extra people fairly easily what with being rather long and spread out.

The BMC has run or backed festivals at quite a  few places - Tremadoc, Gogarth, the Gower, Cheddar and the Lakes to name just a few. Some of these have been to get routes cleaned and climbed, or to encourage people to go to good but unpopular venues. Some have simply been a celebration of climbing. I think Stanage was probably chosen because it's in our minds after the recent campaign. We want the Peak Park to know just how important Stanage is to us as walkers and climbers, what better way to show it than have our 70th anniversary festival there?

If you do have any concerns, drop will@thebmc.co.uk an email, any feedback or ideas about minimising crowding etc will I'm sure be very welcome.