[tomtom]

Bonjoy, is superglue fine on grit? Ice used it on Sandstone - but there was the odd crumbly flake at Cows Mouth on Sat that could do with saving... (Patina worn through etc..)

It's very effective on grit, especially coarse grainy stuff which is very porous so the glue soaks in well and doesn't leave a surface sheen. Used correctly the only downside is some darkening of the rock, depending on the situation this can be next to invisible or pretty obvious. As ever it’s important to use thin glue (old stuff gets syrupy and doesn't soak in well) apply it a bit at a time and dab away any excess quickly with a rag that doesn't leave fibres behind (beer towels are usually fine). Given that in many cases not preventatively gluing will in time lead to scarred and eroded rock I think the visual effect of glue is in most circumstances the lesser evil. Friction loss is minimal and where holds slip due to scrittle you typically get improved friction.

Cool. Used to using it on sandstone where you just apply a little frequently and it soaks in nicely...

[tommytwotone]

I don't think this is an issue of erosion, it's an issue of traffic and the holds settling down after having been cleaned up and used a bit. I've done it on a few occasions and every time the holds have felt cleaner and a bit easier to use, as is the way with plenty of Brimham problems. Given some extra brushing they may well become eroded however, so go easy with the brush please!

Indeed - certain problems at Brimham are looking in a sorry state as a result of some over-enthusiastic brushing. Fantasy League springs to mind.

[Will Hunt]

The problem will be exacerbated at Brimham as it is basically The Depot without a roof. Steep, big holds, no subtlety required - perfect for the strong, one-dimensional wall climber.
Fuck, I'm more bitter than I thought.

[andyd]

I won't be gluing holds unless someone who has a tried and tested history of this takes me on as an apprentice (and I'd really hope nobody else will either).
I think there's a massive risk of 10s of people perfecting the art in a trial-by-error way which could have a very sorry impact on bouldering in general.

Education is key to preserving the rock; knowing how hard to brush, clean boots and allowing it to dry properly should be our main concern. A 'respect the rock' awareness campaign could easily be incorporated into our home screen. This would highlight the importance for newer climbers who are making the plastic to rock transition, and bring it to the forefront of the minds of those of us who climb outside regularly.

[andyd]

The problem will be exacerbated at Brimham as it is basically The Depot without a roof. Steep, big holds, no subtlety required - perfect for the strong, one-dimensional wall climber.

 

[Bonjoy]

I won't be gluing holds unless someone who has a tried and tested history of this takes me on as an apprentice (and I'd really hope nobody else will either).
I think there's a massive risk of 10s of people perfecting the art in a trial-by-error way which could have a very sorry impact on bouldering in general.

Education is key to preserving the rock; knowing how hard to brush, clean boots and allowing it to dry properly should be our main concern. A 'respect the rock' awareness campaign could easily be incorporated into our home screen. This would highlight the importance for newer climbers who are making the plastic to rock transition, and bring it to the forefront of the minds of those of us who climb outside regularly.

 You can follow all the rules scrupulously on some rock and it will still be scrittly even when fully dry. Smearing on such rock does and will damage the rock, even with clean boots and perfect technique. The kind of erosion on Fantasy League which gets blamed on brushing is IMO 95% usage wear, not brushing wear. It makes climbers feel better about the ugly mess left behind to blame it on other people or bad technique, when in fact much/most of the damage is done by normal climbers following 'the rules'.
I've seen a whole lot of fairly extreme examples of ungoing and irreversible usage wear, I've seen a tiny handful of bad repairs on grit (which have been using something other than superglue by the looks of them). I think it's time to stop using the fear of something which hasn't happened stopping us doing something proactive about stuff which is happening all the time.
I agree education is key to protecting the rock, but IMO part of that is more sensible people learning to protect obviously vulnerable holds before they are ruined.

[Will Hunt]

Where do you draw the line with this? Just about every hold on Whalebak (Sp?) is crumbling and this is not through brushing or mistreatment. Would you glue every bit in that scrittly break?

[Bonjoy]

You start by abandoning the irresponsible defeatist notion that because you can’t fix every instance of a problem you should do nothing. Then recognize that it’s a complex problem requiring thoughtful judgement on a hold by hold basis. Then that inevitable mistakes will be made, but ultimately a few mistakes are preferable to the also inevitable results of doing nothing. On something like Whalebak I’d probably fix the first footholds and leave it at that for now. There’s a limit to what you can do but most problems have relatively small areas which take most of the hammer, clearly these are the low hanging fruit. Has anyone done anything about New Jerusalem yet, or is a once great problem still falling apart from malign neglect? That was a prime example of a small wear point which would have been a small and easy fix if dealt with early on.

[Bonjoy]

There are very important points to be made about not going too far with gluing, but so little of it gets done at the moment that these are secondary concerns until people recognize that much of the damage done by boulderers is totally unnecessary. It’s important to take proper care but that is in no way an excuse for everyone to do nothing. 

[r-man]

Like Bonjoy says, there are small bits here and there that will be easy to deal with. I try to keep a couple of tubes of superglue in my bag just in case. You can get six mini tubes for a quid...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/SUPER-STRONG-PLASTIC-RUBBER-ADHESIVE/dp/B00HUQJ46S/ref=pd_cp_kh_1

[turnipturned]

Just be careful here!  I agree, in the right situation and if you know what you are doing, then fine. But have you seen Alfie Thornton at Bowden? I presume that was someone trying to do the right thing that went tits up!

I have also seen some very pretty shocking supergluing on sandstone that has resulted in massive chunks of rock snapping off where the superglue has dried and hardened!

Remember superglue is irreversible!

[Bonjoy]

I haven’t seen AT for a few years, how has it been damaged? I know in the past that French polish and brick hardener have been used in the county, neither of which produced very good results IMO, though who knows how bad the probs might be now had nothing been done, certainly many of the unstabilised things are a shocking mess that will only get worse.
Your caution is warranted though, especially on sandstone which is more sensitive to friction loss and breakage. Perhaps soft sandstone is better suited to a stabiliser which doesn’t have such a hard finish as superglue. These issue do apply to gritstone but to a much lesser extent. I’ve never come across or heard of superglue causing breakages on grit.
Yes superglue is irreversible, but so is erosion. Look around the rest of Bowden, many problems are ruined forever and getting worse every year. The key is to use it first and foremost in contexts where the risk of damage by using it is less than the risk by not. Obviously some degree of experience and/or savvy is needed to make this judgement. What I’m getting at is that the balance of caution versus proactivity is currenty too weighted towards the caution side and that people with the sense to make the correct judgements are not doing so and the crags are suffering as a result.

[Jaspersharpe]

I've mentioned this before but back in the late 80s / early 90s on SS Gary Wickham used some sort of furniture restoration stuff (not sure if it's the French polish you're talking about Bonjoy but it was some sort of thin varnish) to fix a lot of eroding holds and it worked amazingly.

Things like Second Generation would have been impossible to even attempt without it as (being previously aided) nearly all the holds were sandy death and would have just fallen apart, as was the case when I first abbed down it. I don't know if these routes have been repaired since or their current condition but as far as I know they were all still fine years later after one application.

I would have thought that something similar would be the best thing for any sandstone crags rather than superglue or anything like that.

[turnipturned]

Totally agree with what you are saying, just sometimes people don't read the entirety of these threads and I would just hate too see inexperienced people carrying superglue in there bags when out at the crag.

Whats your thoughts on stabilising hand holds, surely if its not being used as a foothold erosion can be avoided by not heavily brushing?

Regarding AT, pretty bad to be honest, there are large shiny white drip marks stains around 2-3 inches below each hold. Is this worse compared to not doing anything, for example veinna? I am not sure! My rule of thumb, don't climb on sandstone (East coast especially) unless its been dry for two days!

Unfortunately, Brimham seems to be peoples 'dodgy weather day' choice as the steeper stuff tends to stay dry! 

[TomP]

This is a minefield subject and there will always be strong views on either side, with both good and bad cases for each argument, all of which have their merits.
Maybe, if people want to stabalise the rock, good practice would be to test on a discrete bit of rock nearby to check it's not going to ruin any holds.
Imo, it's sad to see such great problems ruined forever when discrete preventitive action could be taken....but I wouldn't want every man and his dog trying to do so, or problems unnecessarily being altered. Personally, I wouldnt trust myself to do it, or particularly want the responsibility if it went wrong!

[Bonjoy]

Totally agree with what you are saying, just sometimes people don't read the entirety of these threads and I would just hate too see inexperienced people carrying superglue in there bags when out at the crag.

Whats your thoughts on stabilising hand holds, surely if its not being used as a foothold erosion can be avoided by not heavily brushing?

Regarding AT, pretty bad to be honest, there are large shiny white drip marks stains around 2-3 inches below each hold. Is this worse compared to not doing anything, for example veinna? I am not sure! My rule of thumb, don't climb on sandstone (East coast especially) unless its been dry for two days!

Unfortunately, Brimham seems to be peoples 'dodgy weather day' choice as the steeper stuff tends to stay dry! 

Hand holds (which aren’t also footholds) tend to not to need stabilising unless they are perma sandy. Some handholds - my Peak for instances on this would be the RH hold on Brad’s Wall at Stanton and the slot on Blood Falls at Rowtor - are just plain sandy regardless of conditions, in these instances I think stabilising is the way forward. It’s more of a grey area on holds which aren’t sandy when totally dry. The question is, do you act based on how people would behave in a perfect world (not climb on wet holds), or how people actually behave in the real world? It’s a laudable ambition to get all climbers to apply maximum respect, but will this ever be achieved? If only a few people climb and brush wet sandy holds it still adds up to a lot of damage given enough time.

[andyd]

This is a minefield subject and there will always be strong views on either side, with both good and bad cases for each argument, all of which have their merits.
Maybe, if people want to stabalise the rock, good practice would be to test on a discrete bit of rock nearby to check it's not going to ruin any holds.
Imo, it's sad to see such great problems ruined forever when discrete preventitive action could be taken....but I wouldn't want every man and his dog trying to do so, or problems unnecessarily being altered. Personally, I wouldnt trust myself to do it, or particularly want the responsibility if it went wrong!

Indeed, the backlash of the climbing community (or just a section of it) for getting it wrong is unthinkable.

[Bonjoy]

I'm guessing that's part of the problem. One person has to take responsibility for doing something and the book stops with them. Whereas nobody can be held personally responsible for erosion so the book stops with no one.

[andy_e]

Enough passing the book, how about passing the buck Mr. Eggcorn?

I've frequently wondered about stabilising holds in terms of friction, drainage and differential wear. Perhaps for footholds friction is not greatly altered but I would imagine for handholds it gets more slippery? It could also mean that surface drainage patterns change and how the area next to the repair is as weak as it was before so it'll wear qucker than the repaired patch if for example it's a smear and people don't stand on the exact bit repaired? I think there should be a hold repair trial somehow...

[Bonjoy]

Shit, shit, shit, yes it's buck isn't it not book. 
I've been holding said trial in the Peak for over ten years. I have no regrets about any of the holds I've stabilised, I have lots of regrets about ones I haven't. I've yet to see any problems other then slight darkening and very minor friction loss. As I see it a hold needs stabilising if climbing the problem without is going to destroy the hold, in which case a one off minor loss of friction is preferable to the demise of the hold over time.
As mentioned previously handholds rarely require stabilising, the exception being perma-sandy holds, these by definition have poor ball-bearing friction, in such instances friction is improved in real terms. If a handhold isn't actively sandy it doesn't need this sort of stabilisation.

[SA Chris]

Ice used it on Sandstone

Vanilla?

[tomtom]

Ice used it on Sandstone

Vanilla?

I'm a Cherry Garcia man myself...

[Will Hunt]

This is a minefield subject and there will always be strong views on either side, with both good and bad cases for each argument, all of which have their merits.
Maybe, if people want to stabalise the rock, good practice would be to test on a discrete bit of rock nearby to check it's not going to ruin any holds.
Imo, it's sad to see such great problems ruined forever when discrete preventitive action could be taken....but I wouldn't want every man and his dog trying to do so, or problems unnecessarily being altered. Personally, I wouldnt trust myself to do it, or particularly want the responsibility if it went wrong!

This is exactly my fear.

Jon, is the darkening and stabilisation an instant effect or does it need to be examined on a return visit? How can you tell if somebody has already attempted to stabilise a hold?
If the effects are instant then I'd be far more inclined to try a test patch and then go ahead with a repair. However, as I don't often make frequent return visits to any particular crag, the chances of being able to examine the effect of a test over a period of time are slim.

For what its worth, I don't think the holds on Longbow really need stabilising at the moment. I think it is very overgraded at the moment, but this is more because the problem was not gopping wet and was squeaky clean.

Indeed, the backlash of the climbing community (or just a section of it) for getting it wrong is unthinkable.

[Bonjoy]

 Any darkening is instant. This may reduce a little within a day or so but not much. You can tell if someone has stabilised a hold already because the hold is stable, it invariably works vis-a-vis stopping sandiness, no need for repeat applications.
I have used it for ten years so can tell you what will happen. It sets fast and then doesn't change. Testing it on a bit of drystone wall is about learning to neatly apply.
It's a sad state of affairs if folk are really more frightened of opprobrium than of their probs getting ruined.

[Will Hunt]

I appreciate the info Jon. I think the issue is one of education. There are a lot of gritstone maintenance/cleaning  techniques that are something of a dark art and which, to the general climbing populace, are strongly discouraged or banned (i.e wire brushing, reaffixing broken flakes etc). It's only when you go climbing with certain people that you pick up the knowledge of how to apply these skills appropriately. I think this is how it should be, that people approach the rock with caution. If everybody takes it upon themselves to be crag caretakers you end up with a mess.

With what you have said above, it seems that tests can be made quickly and easily, so I will consider doing this where appropriate in future.