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Much as I enjoy Pog's character and combative style, it is hard not to be suspicious. There's being the best, then there's being on a whole different level. Absolutely smashing the records on climbs previously held by riders known to have been doping... Though it does beg the question, if there are dubious practices going on at the top level, why do only two or three riders seem to be benefiting from them?
 
Will Hunt said:
It's been pretty dull. Pogacar having to attack out of sheer ennui and cruising past everybody to the finish: impressive but boring.
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Gotta say, if having the GC dominated by one rider or team is sufficient to make a TdF dull, there have been a LOT of dull tours.
 
andy moles said:
Much as I enjoy Pog's character and combative style, it is hard not to be suspicious. There's being the best, then there's being on a whole different level. Absolutely smashing the records on climbs previously held by riders known to have been doping... Though it does beg the question, if there are dubious practices going on at the top level, why do only two or three riders seem to be benefiting from them?
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There could be many reasons. They're on something new that the others aren't, or they've figured out a new way of getting the most out of their PEDs, or they've got some natural propensity to get a better performance boost from their PEDs.

As Lance showed, once they're juicing, there's no such thing as a level playing field.
 
Sport, like life, is never a level playing field. Of any argument against doping this one makes no sense to me.
 
Will Hunt said:
It's been pretty dull.
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What on earth are you on about? It's not been dull at all unless all you're interested in is who wins the GC.
 
I've seen the argument 'Pog took 6 minute out of Armstrong, when Armstrong was doping'. As if to prove Pog must be doping. Maybe he is. But all of the top 8 on that climb took time out of 'when Armstrong was doping'. Are they all doping?

uW9Xx8q.jpeg
 
Most likely thay all are Pete... Peak human efficiency and performance hasn't really changed much in 60 years. Times have.

I just can't get excited by it now.
 
I don't know enough to have a very valid point of view, but saying peak human efficiency/performance (I'm assuming you mean just for road cyclists?) hasn't improved in 60 years doesn't seem right. But maybe I'm wrong. Would you say the same about peak human performance/efficiency in rock climbers over the last 60 years?
 
Also a big part of the way teams work now is that they have amazing riders work themselves until they nearly stop, this tows all the top guys up the first 10-15km at a much higher pace than in the past. The top guys then only unleash their full potential for the final 3-4km. I would also argue nutrition and on the bike feeding has got substantially better along with the bikes and aero equipment. I would say that racing tactics and equipment have had a much bigger influence than physical performance on times.
 
Supposedly there's a huge difference with in-race feeding. Cyclists can now ingest double the carbs they could a decade ago - tailored mixtures of different sugars in gels. It used to be the case that riders couldn't take in that amount of fuel without "gastric distress". Supposedly they still need to train their guts to take in that much fuel without getting the shits, but the result is less deterioration day to day.
 
Paul B said:
Will Hunt said:
It's been pretty dull.
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What on earth are you on about? It's not been dull at all unless all you're interested in is who wins the GC.
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Couldn't agree more , despite GC battle running out of steam in the last week this has been a brilliant tour.

So much good racing and great stories. Bardet winning stage one; GC kicking off in Bologna on Stage 2; Girmay winning a stage and then pushing on for the green jersey; Cav winning no. 35; the gravel stage; Vingegaard giving it a real go until he finally couldn't in the last week; Pogacar being Pogacar (whatever misgivings people have he just seems to love riding his bike and racing); Carapez sneaking yellow, winning a brilliant breakaway stage in the last week and then attacking for the polka dot jersey and hopefully wining it ahead of the GC guys; Campenarts wining a stage on his last tour and showing the raw emotion of it all

I've probably missed some as well but if the tour is only good if you have a tight GC battle right up to the end you're likley to be disappointed fairly regularly.
 
Paul B said:
Will Hunt said:
It's been pretty dull.
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What on earth are you on about? It's not been dull at all unless all you're interested in is who wins the GC.
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^this. It’s been a mega tour, so much interesting stuff. The beauty of these races is that there’s so much depth to what’s happening every day, so many different stories playing out.
 
Fultonius said:
Most likely thay all are Pete... Peak human efficiency and performance hasn't really changed much in 60 years. Times have.
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I think you're making an error by looking at times. Look at the (estimated) power data instead. I'm going to enjoy the end of the Tour before going on the Lantern Rouge but they'll have the analysis available.

Kit (bikes, clothing, drivetrain efficiency etc.) makes a staggering difference in terms of speed. I have a 2013 bike and a 2019 'super bike' and putting the same lump of meat on each, I'm considerably quicker on the latter.

Jonas' recovery last year after looking terrible, having a day off and then producing a Pogi-smashing TT made me suspicious :worms:
 
Paul B said:
Jonas' recovery last year after looking terrible, having a day off and then producing a Pogi-smashing TT made me suspicious :worms:
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Saw a few comparisons of their performance in that TT, I think Jonas just absolutely smashed it, gained a lot of his time downhill and through corners

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfAdNlxgz7w&ab_channel=SBSSport
 
[nsfw]Funny how that played out, Soudal Quickstep trying to attack Vingegaard effectively handed another stage win to Pogačar. Stage would surely have gone to Carapaz otherwise, as Pog showed no inclination to push the pace or attack.[/nsfw]
 
Ye agree i think overall it has been a great tour.
Agree would have been even better if jonas had been able to prepare properly and remco had a better balanced team - fingers crossed all 3 start next years in top form.
Dont think pog would have been so far ahead if hadnt been for these circumstances.

[nsfw]ye funny one that today, bet pog couldnt believe his luck! was good to see mountain jersey go to carapaz and not just the yellow jersey by default. [/nsfw]
 
[nsfw] about time the Soudal team had to do some work, I bet the mountain domestiques couldn’t believe their luck with the east ride they’ve had this tour!

Hope Remco left something in the tank for TT tomorrow.

Pog must be about half way to Cav’s record in 4 tours! [/nsfw]
 
[nsfw]i know, barely noticed landa was at the tour. ye fingers crossed remco wins tomorrow as think he’s done well this tour and prob won some fans with way he has tried to push for second. that said decent chance pog could win again and as u say he is accumulating stage wins pretty rapidly! . [/nsfw]
 
andy moles said:
Much as I enjoy Pog's character and combative style, it is hard not to be suspicious. There's being the best, then there's being on a whole different level. Absolutely smashing the records on climbs previously held by riders known to have been doping... Though it does beg the question, if there are dubious practices going on at the top level, why do only two or three riders seem to be benefiting from them?
Click to expand...

Surely someone like Janja is the climbing equivalent. Everyone has access to the same tools and training yet she just seems to be miles ahead of both historical achievements and also her current competition. Do you believe she is doping? Personally I believe that there are the 0.1% that are just better than even "normal" elite sportspeople. Football equivalents would be Messi and Ronaldo, or Federer and Nadal in tennis (possibly not the best arguement as tennis is one of the sports I think could be heavily doped...) in all sports though there are those that are just more gifted. Candidie Thovex in skiing, Tiger Woods in golf, the lists go on. Personally I think Pogi is a generational talent and we should celebrate and watch in awe at what he can do on a humble bicycle.
 

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