sirlockoff
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wide boyz been snooping around here! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZNj6K9xXVA&ab_channel=WideBoyz
Topic split: Ondra repeats Bon Voyage and grade debate
- Thread starter Wellsy
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Kingy
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OK, well I'm calling it E12 7a from the comfort of my almchair. Somebody who has tried or done it would need to make the call whether its E12 7b or not.
To me, it needs that English tech grade to make any sense at all. Headhunter E5 in Pembroke is a shit grade, E5 6a so much better.
To me, it needs that English tech grade to make any sense at all. Headhunter E5 in Pembroke is a shit grade, E5 6a so much better.
spidermonkey09
Well-Known Member
That thumbnail is a disgrace but the first 10 mins of that video were decent. Not sure how they're going to fill another 30!
Tech grade is essentially meaningless whether it's 7a or 7b. Up to 6b is 100% useful, 6c maybe just about still useful but not hugely.
Tech grade is essentially meaningless whether it's 7a or 7b. Up to 6b is 100% useful, 6c maybe just about still useful but not hugely.
kingholmesy
Well-Known Member
spidermonkey09 said:
:agree: Surely everyone agrees the English tech grade is broken above 6c? Would be good if we can avoid the adjectival E grade from ending up being useless at the top end too.
I think an adjectival E grade tells you more than just chucking an R on the end of a sports grade, and as such is worth preserving.
I’m sure it’s been suggested before but in my view the most useful combination is an E grade and a sports grade. I think this probably applies for anything from E4/5 upwards, certainly for E7/8 upwards.
Yes it is also helpful to have a narrative about the route, but number grades serve a useful function too.
Kingy
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I agree that the tech grade can be quite wide beyond 6c but that doesn't necessarily mean we should bin it completely. What are we saying, is there to be a cessation of all tech grades being given above 6c from 2024 onwards?
What about routes such as Trauma E8 7a in the pass, The Quarryman E8 7a, The Keswickian E8 7a, New Statesman E8 7a, Parthian Shot E10 7a, Mission Impossible E9 7a? I would argue that there is nothing wrong with the 7a grade given for these routes. Why mess with tradition and what is the alternative?
I don't see the harm in adding a 7a tech grade to hard routes. Without that the E grade has nothing to base it on, nothing that has been tried and tested over the last 50 years at any rate.
What about routes such as Trauma E8 7a in the pass, The Quarryman E8 7a, The Keswickian E8 7a, New Statesman E8 7a, Parthian Shot E10 7a, Mission Impossible E9 7a? I would argue that there is nothing wrong with the 7a grade given for these routes. Why mess with tradition and what is the alternative?
I don't see the harm in adding a 7a tech grade to hard routes. Without that the E grade has nothing to base it on, nothing that has been tried and tested over the last 50 years at any rate.
Liamhutch89
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kingholmesy said:
The idea of having a grade that contains more information seems desirable to a lot of people but why? Just write a sentence or two in the description and that would tell you more than a couple of numbers and letters ever can. Modern databases aren't limited by space like a physical book, but a description wouldn't be necessary on every route anyway.
Fultonius
Was strong but crap, now weaker but better.
Kingy said:
Getting quite UKC HERE BUT....
I don't think many people have an issue with the concept of having second grade to add info. It does, in general, work well. It's just that the tech grades themselves are bonkers above 6b. For it to continue to work properly above 6b, it really should have much finer gradation. Even full V grade spacings would work. 6b (imo) needs 2 further spacings. 6c could probably do with 3 (I've only done a pair of trad routes with UK 6c grades attached, so can't comment too much) and then 7a...?
Kingy
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The tech grades above 6c are definitely wide but I don't think they are inherantly mad per se. Interesting suggestion for finer gradations to be given - this would definitley be a good idea if it caught on.
When I started climbing in the mid 90's English 7a was around the Font 7b+ and above mark. So West Side Story is an English 7a move (i.e. E4 7a). Also, Blind Date is also 7b+ (E4 7a as a trad route to the top of the crag). Both are very well protected or within bouldering height so low E grades. For a more dangerous example, Gaia used to be E8 7a (E8 6c now in current guidebook I think).
Even if the finer gradations of the Tech grade didn't catch on, there is value in stating whether the crux move is Font 7b+ or harder (i.e. 6c or 7a English tech). You can then work out whether the route is well protected or runout/ worse and calibrate the E grade accordingly.
When I started climbing in the mid 90's English 7a was around the Font 7b+ and above mark. So West Side Story is an English 7a move (i.e. E4 7a). Also, Blind Date is also 7b+ (E4 7a as a trad route to the top of the crag). Both are very well protected or within bouldering height so low E grades. For a more dangerous example, Gaia used to be E8 7a (E8 6c now in current guidebook I think).
Even if the finer gradations of the Tech grade didn't catch on, there is value in stating whether the crux move is Font 7b+ or harder (i.e. 6c or 7a English tech). You can then work out whether the route is well protected or runout/ worse and calibrate the E grade accordingly.
Fultonius said:
Going full UKC/reddit by giving my opinions on something I have no knowledge of whatsoever...
Knowing the difficulty of the crux strikes me as usueful info for easy routes. Almost no route graded Fr 5c is sustained. They are often defined by their crux, as they are low angle, full of big footholds etc. I know pretty much exactly how hard a "5c crux" is. Or a "6a crux".
Knowing the difficulty of the crux strikes me as pretty worthless info for hard routes = sustained routes. Most routes graded 8a are sustained. They are rarely defined by their crux. "8a crux" makes no sense. A powerendurance 8a has maybe no sequence harder than FB 6C between bolts. A endurance 8a might not have anything harder than FB 6A. Neither info is relevant for an onsight attempt. Obviously anyone who hopes to onsight an endurance 8a would flash 6C most of the time. It is a difference without meaning.
(Yeah, yeah, if the route is a boulder problem to easy climbing the tech grade would be Fb 7B+ or something stupid like this and this might give me the info that I would never onsight this in a million years. But we're not exactly talking about classics here.)
monkoffunk
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I can think of plenty of UK sustained routes that I’ve climbed where they was still a distinct cruxy bit or some section somewhat harder than others. Plenty of 8as around the south coast absolutely have boulder sections, lots of useful info from the font grade. Writing them off as ‘not exactly classics’ just seems like a matter of taste. People seem happy to keep on climbing them.
SA Chris said:
At these sort of grades (assuming we’re still talking about Bon Voyage or have we forked again?!) it is! It’s become a contextless dot on the graph.
I’ve been inured in trad grades for decades and ‘runout 9a’ tells me a lot more about the route than E12 does. All that has happened is someone has decided that ‘runout 9a’ equates to some arbitrary figure and when told that figure everyone else just says ‘what does that mean?’ and the only answer to that that means anything is ‘run out 9a’!
spidermonkey09
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'm not sure jwi's view here is all that applicable to UK sport. It probably does apply to Rodellar though!
