Topic split: Ondra repeats Bon Voyage and grade debate

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Only three days and got on the lead on day 2 ... sounds like he didn't have to overcome any huge psychological barriers before getting on with it. Whether redpointing, onsighting, or tradding it seems like Ondra's full bore a muerte commitment if often what really sets him apart.
 
IanP said:
Andy F said:
That's if those routes are totally safe. If it's a bit pokey, add an E grade, if it's very spicy add two, death add 3. So a spicy, run out 9a would be E12.
Brilliant efforts by James and Adam. Proper climbing, proper grades, properly impressive.
Probably my last comment on this since everybody seems to disagree with me (which maybe means I'm wrong). This definition means that it appears to be much easier for for AO to climb a spicy E12 (Bon Voyage) than a bolted E12 (Silence, B.I.G?). Which seems to mean that spicy E12 is significantly less of a challenge i.e. less difficult 'overall' rather than just less difficult physically.

Anyway as said this doesn't matter, Bon Voyage is obviously an awesome effort and JP must be totally made up that Ondra came , put in a proper effort, and repeated it. And despite other climbers competing with him at the top end of repointing etc it seems that Ondra is still pretty much unequivocally the best climber in the world.

This line of thinking makes no sense to me. Its only "less of a challenge" for Ondra to climb a bold route of a given grade because he's good at dealing with the uncertainties of iffy gear and long falls. It's the same for any grade. For people who go to pieces when above gear Edge Lane is going to be a pipe dream E5, but London Wall much more attainable. Kingholmsey is correct.
 
Fiend said:
Brilliant. Brought a smile to my face this morning. And Pearson gets his long overdue legit E12 after all :dance1:

I’m useless with grades so maybe this is a stupid question, but what’s Ondra’s trad background like to confirm that it’s E12? Not that I’m doubting at all, just curious.

I know he’s done plenty of hard stuff, but not sure what E-grades they equate to.

Will his grade confirmation be based on the 9a level, which means E12 is legit given the gear?

Having done one VS in my life, trad grades are pretty meaningless to me…

Mega effort from both of them either way!
 
well isn't british trad grades only used by british - bit weird to give E grade to something overseas? I would imagine ondra has no idea what E9 or E10 or anything like that would mean, how would he? Dawn wall has the hardest pitch as 8c+ I believe.

I think all that we can take from this is that grade 9a was confirmed by Ondra, as well being quite run out, but 'probably safe'. According to Pearsons own calculator, it is E12, would be rather more interesting to know where did the top dogs in trad such as macleod, mclure got to as far as agreement with the darth grader.

either way great job Pearson :great:
 
sirlockoff said:
Dawn wall has the hardest pitch as 8c+ I believe.

Pitches 14 & 15 are 14d / 9a.

Surely Empath is the other major contender for hardest trad climb in the world? Originally 15a but downgraded to 14d by Connor Herson climbing it on gear.
 
sirlockoff said:
well isn't british trad grades only used by british - bit weird to give E grade to something overseas? I would imagine ondra has no idea what E9 or E10 or anything like that would mean, how would he? Dawn wall has the hardest pitch as 8c+ I believe.

Despite all the teeth gnashing Brits like to do about E grades they're not really that complicated and are broadly useful in describing how hard and dangerous a route is. If he can answer questions like 'how hard did it feel?' and 'how dangerous did it feel?' you're most of the way there, especially with something like e grader to help you calibrate.
 
Bradders said:
sirlockoff said:
Dawn wall has the hardest pitch as 8c+ I believe.

Pitches 14 & 15 are 14d / 9a.

Surely Empath is the other major contender for hardest trad climb in the world? Originally 15a but downgraded to 14d by Connor Herson climbing it on gear.

Let’s not forget P-whiddy’s Crown Royale ~9a and Tribe? Though JP rinsed that pretty quickly…

Be ace to see the O-dog on Crown Royale… maybe even for him to give it a flash go!?
 
remus said:
especially with something like e grader to help you calibrate.

...which was universally well received!?!

Calibrating something against a model is backward.
 
Paul B said:
remus said:
especially with something like e grader to help you calibrate.

...which was universally well received!?!

Calibrating something against a model is backward.

Sure, but if you have little experience with e grades then "visit the website and play around with it for half an hour" is a lore more practical than "climb a thousand trad routes in the UK" and will get you 95% of the way there.
 
Which is based on the assumption the website/model is actually a useful one. It's old ground but the initial release at least was based on flawed assumptions IMO (and I wasn't the only one). I can't remember where Barrows wrote his thoughts up, was it here or an Insta comment? Anyway, that.

I agree with the rest of your post though and with a climber with such breadth of experience it should be pretty easy to discuss relative difficulty and danger and offer some benchmarks. British tech grades make a lot more sense than just adding an R to anything where you have to use wires instead of plugging in cams.
 
remus said:
Despite all the teeth gnashing Brits like to do about E grades they're not really that complicated and are broadly useful in describing how hard and dangerous a route is.
:agree: All hail his Royal Majesty's jolly fine Great Brexitish grading system of doing a spiffing job of descrbing the challenge on one's ascent, tally ho!
 
Paul B said:
British tech grades make a lot more sense than just adding an R to anything where you have to use wires instead of plugging in cams.

Are these the same British tech grades where 6C can cover a range from at least V5-V10, and that aren't supposed to be influenced by how pumped/powered out/scared you are but in practice always are - but to an extent that's totally unpredictable without prior knowledge about the peer group of the first ascentionist? ;)
 
Does anyone ever truly understand the challenge they are going to face without some kind of narrative alongside the E +/- tech grade? For all the reasons already mentioned. Does it add anything to the 9a and a story? Does it save words? (Certainly not in debate).
 
Bradders said:
sirlockoff said:
Dawn wall has the hardest pitch as 8c+ I believe.

Pitches 14 & 15 are 14d / 9a.

Surely Empath is the other major contender for hardest trad climb in the world? Originally 15a but downgraded to 14d by Connor Herson climbing it on gear.

Connor Henson said 5.14c for Empath on bolts but bit harder placing gear rather than bolts so maybe 5.14d for the gear ascent.

Ondra said BV would be very solid 9a if bolted and placing gear makes it physically a bit harder. Sounds like it's a very strong contender for the hardest trad route in the world. Particularly since JP has done tribe and AO Dawn Wall (aren't the hardest pitches on Dawn Wall pretty much bolt lines?).
 
Yes, EV does sounds right up there with the hardest.

Regardless of the merits or demerits of the English tech grade, what actually is it? Surely, the E12 tag is incomplete without a tech grade being assigned to it.

Also, regarding Dawn Wall, Ondra apparently thought the crux pitches were a little overgraded at 9a. He also did the loop pitch rather than the dyno. From this interview https://stara.emontana.cz/adam-ondra-dawn-wall-interview/ :

"And what about the ratings of the key pitches? Do you find them OK? Would you rate them 9a routes in the sport climbing areas?

In my opinion the 14th pitch is a bit of an easier 9a, so it fits the guidebook. The 15th pitch, and Tommy himself said it too, should be 8c+. I would agree with that. But then there are a lot of 8b+ pitches which I could rate 8c in some areas. Lots of those 8a+ could be 8b or even more, I reckon. So, I find the most difficult pitches a little bit overrated but it is compensated by the fact that any of those 8a could be rated higher."
 
Without having even seen any of the contentenders in real life, Empath looks like a route any solid 9a onsighter could go up with a bunch of gear and be quite confident they would get to the belay without any issues. Bon Voyage looks like something that would a solid 9a onsighter would be just daft to go ground-up on with a few cams on the harness.
 
When you say "any solid 9a onsighter" do you mean Ondra or Megos as I believe they are the only ones who have done that.
 
I don't think Megos is a solid 9a onsighter, he has not done enough of them. But in the future there will be more of them.

If something like Empath is 7c+ (by being less steep or having better friction e.g.) I would not hesitate to try ground up. If a route looking like Empath was 7c+ I would never try ground up in a million years.
 
Fiend said:
Pretty sure Paul B meant UK adjectival grade??

I meant the combination, as in relative difficulty in a band tells you more about the risk involved than slapping an R after something.
 

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