Topic split: Kneebars / Kneepads / Knee training

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It was Steve that added the plywood extension underneath the Foundry board (I believe) allowing people to kneebar and hang inverted either 'curling up' with weights or just doing touches/holds. Even I used it.
 
Yep, and how many people have done a winter's specific pain tolerance training? Fewer people than now have a Lattice plan, would you agree? And what would Eder do after another 5 winter's training with a more professional approach informed by better developed sport science? How many research papers are published right now about the effects of various training regimes on kneebar performance?

My point is that kneebarring is almost certainly still in relative infancy, way behind on its developmental curve than other forms of training. There are some early adopters who are reaping the benefits while there are still lots of people grumbling about using kneebars on existing routes. Kind of like people training in the 80s whilst others moaned that it's cheating if you turn up to the crag without a hangover.
 
Don't think I've ever heard anyone grumble about kneeBARS on existing routes. KneePADS certainly. One is a technique, and complaining about it ridiculous, the other is a relatively recent bit of equipment, and eschewing it (or pointing out that it may change the difficulty of something) is a reasonable position, though an increasingly minority one.
 
From a few messages with Steve, I think that where I read him as saying pad tech had improved a lot since 2017 (which I objected to), what he meant was more that for him pad tech has changed a lot over that period, in part because he was a bit behind the curve back then. Which all makes sense.

teestub said:
I’m assuming Barrows has also spent a lot of time hanging upside down with his knees stuffed behind a campus board!
Oh yes, very much so. Done plenty of finding kneebars on the School splat board to train on too. But never to the point of training pain tolerance, and I've only ever tried training my calves - not the other bits of the leg. Got some new ideas to try now!

I think on the training for kneebaring front that Will is right but others are right too - people have been doing it for years (people in Colorado were doing calf raises before I'd ever seen a kneepad), but there's a lot further to go and now that it's less niche people will start to learn what does/doesn't work well. Some people still look at me funny when I'm training in a pair of old pads, like they used to 10 years ago when training with a stopwatch.. but like stopwatches are now common, I suspect that in another 10 years people retiring pads to "training pads" after a season will be common and calf raises will be standard.
 
Duma said:
Don't think I've ever heard anyone grumble about kneeBARS on existing routes. KneePADS certainly.

With respect, Duma, where have you been? :lol:
 
Duma said:
Don't think I've ever heard anyone grumble about kneeBARS on existing routes. KneePADS certainly. One is a technique, and complaining about it ridiculous

I don't entirely agree with this; at crags which were historically used as places to train, seeking out eliminates to enhance difficulty I don't see the difference (personally). This came apparent when everyone started to find certain problems at the Tor (no, not Ben's Roof) easier but in reality had ignored the 'rules'. Yes, it's fine to not do so (and we can argue plenty about the merits of training by eliminating technique etc.), but it isn't the same thing.

abarro81 said:
but like stopwatches are now common, I suspect that in another 10 years people retiring pads to "training pads" after a season will be common and calf raises will be standard.

Definitely. I've been trying to find a suitable volume that'll fit on my board that will allow me to get a hands off rest without taking up an unreasonable amount of room. Training on Ste's bit of wood (ooh err) did work wonders for me.
 
Paul B said:
we can argue plenty about the merits of training by eliminating technique etc
My standard answer when someone asks me why I would use a knee indoors, or use an easier sequence than the intended one indoors, or use a knee on boulder links that are mostly for training is "I'm not training to be shit at rock climbing"...
 
abarro81 said:
Paul B said:
we can argue plenty about the merits of training by eliminating technique etc
My standard answer when someone asks me why I would use a knee indoors, or use an easier sequence than the intended one indoors, or use a knee on boulder links that are mostly for training is "I'm not training to be shit at sport climbing or cave-style bouldering as practiced since the 2010s. "...
Added context for you. Rock climbing's a broad church that encompasses E5 5c at Gogarth, the Walker Spur *and* 9b at Malham. You're training to be good at one bit of 'rock-climbing' but not the others (which you might or might not remain relatively shit at, independent of being good at the other).

And 'rock climbing' pre-kneepads wasn't the same as rock climbing is post-kneepads. Inevitable transition period still ongoing. Still waiting for little hard plastic heel spikes on rock shoes as the next boat-rocking evolution. Dunno how much they'll help on the Walker Spur.
 
I think you may have misread or misunderstood my post... the middle of the 3 examples didn't even have anything to do with knees (padded or otherwise). And the other two didn't even mention pads, just knees, which AFAIK were invented prior to 2010. Either that or I just imagined going to Europe and everyone kneebaring the tufas before that? And everyone kneebaring at the cornice for that matter. Even if you were a pad hater there'd still be good reason to practice kneebar technique.

petejh said:
Still waiting for little hard plastic heel spikes on rock shoes as the next boat-rocking evolution
I take it you've never tried an anasazi on a spike before. But god it gets :yawn: pointing that out to you again :lol:

P.S. I'll remember to do more indoor eliminates and no-knee link ups at Griff's to train for adventure choss and winterneering :lol: I have genuinely no clue how the point you're trying to make there relates to whether "training" by technique eliminates is a good idea or just crap training if what you want to get better at is the vast majority of rock climbing (i.e. not pinches wall eliminates)! It's a long time since I climbed a Gogarth E5, but IIRC the ability to climb sequences efficiently was more useful on trad than the ability to campus.
 
petejh said:
Still waiting for little hard plastic heel spikes on rock shoes as the next boat-rocking evolution. Dunno how much they'll help on the Walker Spur.

Heel spurs on the Walker Spur?
 
abarro81 said:
I think you may have misread or misunderstood my post... the middle of the 3 examples didn't even have anything to do with knees (padded or otherwise). And the other two didn't even mention pads, just knees, which AFAIK were invented prior to 2010. Either that or I just imagined going to Europe and everyone kneebaring the tufas before that? And everyone kneebaring at the cornice for that matter. Even if you were a pad hater there'd still be good reason to practice kneebar technique.

petejh said:
Still waiting for little hard plastic heel spikes on rock shoes as the next boat-rocking evolution
I take it you've never tried an anasazi on a spike before. But god it gets :yawn: pointing that out to you again :lol:

P.S. I'll remember to do more indoor eliminates and no-knee link ups at Griff's to train for adventure choss and winterneering :lol: I have genuinely no clue how the point you're trying to make there relates to whether "training" by technique eliminates is a good idea or just crap training if what you want to get better at is the vast majority of rock climbing (i.e. not pinches wall eliminates)! It's a long time since I climbed a Gogarth E5, but IIRC the ability to climb sequences efficiently was more useful on trad than the ability to campus.

Was merely a light-hearted attempt to point out that when you said you train knees so as not to be shit at 'rock climbing' your definition was one very specific type of rock climbing. Seems it wasn't taken in the spirit it was sent. Never mind. ::)
 
abarro81 said:
My standard answer when someone asks me why I would use a knee indoors, or use an easier sequence than the intended one indoors, or use a knee on boulder links that are mostly for training is "I'm not training to be shit at rock climbing"...

Totally, and I'm from the same church these days (having retrained myself from being Barry Basic), but let's be clear, if you don't apply the 'rules' of an eliminate (and these exist), it is generally easier. That's not a comment on the recent ascent BTW before I inadvertently upset someone.
 
petejh said:
Was merely a light-hearted attempt to point out that when you said you train knees so as not to be shit at 'rock climbing' your definition was one very specific type of rock climbing. Seems it wasn't taken in the spirit it was sent. Never mind. ::)
Ah right, sorry, I think the confusion was because I wasn't trying to say that I train knees so as not be bad at climbing, but that I don't artificially avoid knees (or using the easiest sequence, or matching, or any other technique) so as not to be bad at climbing. If I read my post the way you read it then I understand your response (whereas reading your post in the context of how I'd meant mine implied that front-on-basic was good training for the Greater Ranges)!
 
I’m waiting to subscribe for the Need+ app with a range of knee bar sessions catering for different energy systems. :popcorn:

With Barros & Ondra doing weekly podcasts for their Patreon members.

To be taken in the good fun it was intended.
 
Kneebars have been trained for years in the offwidth community. It's just we're a bunch of misfits who tend to pursue our sordid practices in private...
 
I have two knee questions.

I seem to keep taking the top layer of skin off my thighs when repeatedly trying kneebars I have to push really hard on. This then scabs and takes a week or 2 to heal. Is this normal or is there a way to mitigate it? I'm wearing the Send pad

I've had a session on a boulder with quite a hard knee (for me at least) and will probably find better positions naturally, but is there anything that can be done to train this specific type of knee where you are pressing inwards with the thigh rather than up and into something? On the vid below, just working the moves, I fall out of the knee quite abruptly as it needs a lot of sidewards pressure. I'm sure this is mostly technique but has anyone trained it?

https://youtu.be/uE20DUivehA

I suspect ABarro will be best placed to answer, although I know there's at least 2 others on this board that have done this specific problem! Cheers.
 
Liamhutch89 said:
I seem to keep taking the top layer of skin off my thighs when repeatedly trying kneebars I have to push really hard on. This then scabs and takes a week or 2 to heal. Is this normal or is there a way to mitigate it? I'm wearing the Send pad

That's interesting, the only issues I tend to get are bruising from pointy knees rather than skin damage. Just speculating, but I guess it'll probably be about minimising pad movement when you're in the knee, so perhaps some tape around the top of the pad and spray glue would help.

I've had a session on a boulder with quite a hard knee (for me at least) and will probably find better positions naturally, but is there anything that can be done to train this specific type of knee where you are pressing inwards with the thigh rather than up and into something? On the vid below, just working the moves, I fall out of the knee quite abruptly as it needs a lot of sidewards pressure. I'm sure this is mostly technique but has anyone trained it?

Calf power and hip mobility are the key for me. Calf for being able to really press in to it and then hip so you don't pull yourself out. I've never really struggled with calf power so haven't trained it, but I do do some hip flexibility work and anecdotally it does seem to have helped my knee bars by allowing my hips to get in to better position for milking them.
 
I get skin damage on hard knees sometimes, but very rarely to the point of actually getting scabs, just raw and sore. like Remus says I think minimising pad movement helps a lot, but on some hard knees its probably not avoidable and you might have to limit number of goes. A stiffer pad (sportiva or blak pad) is also likely to help on the most sore ones.

As far as training that kind of knee goes, I've never tried... I must confess my knee training is 'a bit 90s' in that mostly involves doing knees (indoors and out), plus a bit of calf weights or calf pump using BFR cuffs. I'd imagine that training your hip adductors would help here, should be plenty of exercises out there if you google. Sorry not to be more help!
 

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