Topic split - gap between onsight and redpoint performance

[Kingy]

Not disagreeing, but pretty sure you mean two full letter grades, not number grades.

Oops, well spotted, 2 full letter grades it is.

 

[Duma]

Thought I'd apply a bit of #SCIENCE to the proceedings so had a quick look at some of the lattice data. Looks like the average difference between RP and OS grade (to be precise, RP - OS) is 2.6 grades across the sample I looked at. Usual caveats apply, potentially biased sample etc.

This hasn't been picked up by anyone but seems pretty odd to me - I'd consider 3 to be a good onsight climber, and less than three a bad redpointer, and if I had to guess at averages I'd have gone around 4. Even more so given my (entirely pie in the sky) assumptions about the lattice data set (grade focused climbers probably more into projecting so as to get bigger numbers to stick a green tick next to on insta...)

2.6 seems really low, are people stretching the definition of onsight (so it means flash...)

 

[Kingy]

I remember being below Biographie in 2005 when Yuji Hurijama was first about to try it for the first time. Did he grab the first draws to frig his way up it and get it worked in the most efficient manner? Hell no, he went for the onsight as a matter of principle. He fell off on the starting boulder problem but it was essential for him to have at least tried before pulling on any draws. You never know! I guess he didn't near onsight the Salathe Wall in 1998 by not trying to onsight the odd hard sequence!

 

[ali k]

BTW, not all UK routes are desparate to onsight, Defcon 3 is just as onsightable as any 8a in Chulila IMHO. All the holds are well chalked and the line quite obvious.

This is true, but they are very few and far between.

Maybe we could start a list to help aspirant UK onsighters? Infinitive Gravity and then potentially some of the stuff at Shipwreck Cove are the only ones that immediately spring to mind. Though onsighting good cons might be the crux at both venues.

Oh, and Brean is a reasonable crag for onsighting. With the odd exception (like Defcon) most stuff on Yorks & Peak limestone is nails to onsight.

 

[Ged]

IMO, if you''ve RPd 8c and aren't at least semi-consistently onsighting the "classically onsightable" euro 8as, then you probably either aren't very good at it or don't do much of it. Obviously not trying to onsight them will put you firmly in the latter camp by default! Plenty of people prefer that, which is obviously fine - you probably get more done that way than trying to onsight them. Blowing a hard o/s up high on a long route can leave you flamed for the day and unable to RP so it's a high risk strategy. I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum - I'm almost not interested in dogging up routes I'm likely to do second go as I figure if I can do it that fast I should be having a good flash or onsight try (or trying something harder for longer). But that's just because of what I like doing and in some ways it holds me back (I'd have done a shit load more routes at that level with a different approach). Somewhere in the middle would probably work better for both of us!

I think this is all true. Would be keen for a shortlist of 'classically onsightable' euro 8as if you get a moment so I can ensure I at least try a few in the next few years to redress the balance a bit!

I think the risk of flaming myself on a failed onsight go is part of the reason I haven't tended to try them much tbh. I think I also am fundamentally lazy on holidays abroad and go for steady onsights which I know I'll probably do as opposed to pushing the boat out. Interestingly I'm also yet to do anything harder than my best onsight 'in a day' if that makes sense, although I should have done a few times in the UK. Basically I think I need to try a bit harder! That said, I think the time period where I have been at least theoretically capable of harder onsighting has coincided almost perfectly with travel being extremely arduous/ impossible, which doesn't help!

Depends if you want actual onsightable 8a, or a soft 8a that is clearly 7c+ or less. I think my hardest onsights are routes given 7c+.

To get you started, see my list above (agent naranja, surely only 7c+, fun de chichunne, no idea as its such a weird style, les ailes du desir, maybe 7c+, coliseum, felt the most like 8a).

Interesting your second point about going for steady onsights. I've had loads of trips like that where I was basically terrified of trying something hard, blowing it, being too tired to do anything else, and walking away empty handed. The trips I managed hard os for me, I dedicated them to just getting on 8a routes, and not caring if I blew them. For every one I did, I probably failed on 5. Something that just wouldn't be possible in the UK.

 

[Ged]

BTW, not all UK routes are desparate to onsight, Defcon 3 is just as onsightable as any 8a in Chulila IMHO. All the holds are well chalked and the line quite obvious.

This is true, but they are very few and far between.

Maybe we could start a list to help aspirant UK onsighters? Infinitive Gravity and then potentially some of the stuff at Shipwreck Cove are the only ones that immediately spring to mind. Though onsighting good cons might be the crux at both venues.

Oh, and Brean is a reasonable crag for onsighting. With the odd exception (like Defcon) most stuff on Yorks & Peak limestone is nails to onsight.

All the routes at potato head, as long as they are chalked.

 

[spidermonkey09]

Thats the thing, I do really love getting completely boxed when onsighting, its one of the best things about trad climbing I think. So I think its mostly due to just not trying it on bolts much, due to a combination of climbing a lot on Yorkshire/Peak lime where onsighting is nails and wanting to just do loads of climbing when I go on holiday, rather than just try one route, fail and massage my forearms all day!

Ged, I'm happy with 7c+'s too as I haven't onsighted any of them either! Good effort onsighting Coloseum, for me to get fit enough to onsight anything of that grade in Rodellar I think I'd need to do a lot of preparation (or get bigger arms).

 

[remus]

Thought I'd apply a bit of #SCIENCE to the proceedings so had a quick look at some of the lattice data. Looks like the average difference between RP and OS grade (to be precise, RP - OS) is 2.6 grades across the sample I looked at. Usual caveats apply, potentially biased sample etc.

This hasn't been picked up by anyone but seems pretty odd to me - I'd consider 3 to be a good onsight climber, and less than three a bad redpointer, and if I had to guess at averages I'd have gone around 4. Even more so given my (entirely pie in the sky) assumptions about the lattice data set (grade focused climbers probably more into projecting so as to get bigger numbers to stick a green tick next to on insta...)

2.6 seems really low, are people stretching the definition of onsight (so it means flash...)

My intuition agrees with yours, 2.6 feels pretty low. I suspect it's because the 3/4 rule only applies to someone who's put a lot of effort in to both onsighting and redpointing, which suggests that the people in the sample are biased slightly towards onsights (and quick redpoints?) than hard redpoints.

 

[Duncan campbell]

Onsighting is such a funny thing. I often think of myself as a climber who is better at onsighting, but then sometimes I feel like I'm a much better quick redpointer. For me its quite a fluid thing. My disparity is 3 or 4? (7b+ o/s, 7c flash, 8a+ RP) Though I have also o/s'ed 7b multipitch and supposed 7b on trad (Pretty Girls and Barbarossa).

Much of my initial life as a climber was spent onsighting and I work routes like an onsighter - I climb between rests and am terrible at lowering and re-doing sequences. :slap:

I'm excited to go abroad and try and push my onsighting as I find the UK in general hard to onsight at and I haven't been abroad since climbing 8a+ or 8a more consistently (incidentally my best trad onsights have been since upping my RPing.)

I always admire how good at onsighting some of my mates are. a few that stand out;

Nathan bloody Lee - hes onsighted some tricky things in the UK; Tequila Mockingbird, the Shining (probably a good UK 8a for onsighting?) plus quite a few other bits.

Ben Silvestre - pretty sure he onsighted 7c/7c+ when his best RP was 8a.

 

[NaoB]

And what are we using to measure? The best onsight you've ever done on a one-off low gravity day with a strong up draft on a softly graded route (8a flash or 7c+ os for me), or the more realistic step down to the level where I've done a handful to consolidate (7c+ flash and 7c os for me)?

 

[spidermonkey09]

And what are we using to measure? The best onsight you've ever done on a one-off low gravity day with a strong up draft on a softly graded route (8a flash or 7c+ os for me), or the more realistic step down to the level where I've done a handful to consolidate (7c+ flash and 7c os for me)?

I think one has to take the one-off low gravity day, because thats the kind of day I certainly tend to need to get my best RPs done; at least that way its comparing like with like!

 

[Fultonius]

Will the gap[ not shift too, so long as you're comparing your "single best redpoint"?

That's a very good point. I've O/Sd 3 x F7bs and I suspect that I would be able to do more at that grade, if I had the trips / time / routes to try. I've RPd one (soft) F8a that took a lot of sessions, and 2 x 7c+s that took a few sessions.

I suspect a "one off" siege RP might correspond roughly to your concept of a floaty / light / got the sequence right top end O/S.

Using your "3 rep max" equivalent would probably make things more comparable?


i.e. for me: Max RP: f8a (soft), 3 rep max RP (7c+ [for the sake of argument, as I've only done 2 but suspect a 3rd could come quite quickl])

Max 1 rep O/S f7b* / max 3 rep O/S f7b (

* I have never tried 7b+ but would have thought possible on a the right route / day etc.

So 1RM differential: 4 grades (potentially 3 if I found the right route/tried loads of 7b+s), 3RM: 3 grades


I kind of suspect you all might be the same (especially if you have decent pyramids)

 

[Neil F]

For many years my on sight maximum was exactly the same as my redpoint maximum - 7c+. And in the higher grades (7b and above) I'd on sighted (or at least flashed) as many routes of a particular grade as I'd redpointed.

That probably reflected my general lack of interest in redpointing as much as any great talent for on sighting. Indeed for a long time when I was climbing my best, that lack of motivation for 'projects' meant I that I wouldn't go on anything (sport-wise) that I didn't think I could do in a day.

Anyway, I then went an ruined it all by dragging my reluctant frame up the Crucifixion, thereby inadvertently establishing a redpoint / on sight grade desparity which I will take to my grave....

Neil

 

[Rocksteady]

Good topic. I don't get out on rock half as much as I'd like and find onsighting very difficult. But am quite good at getting quick redpoints in my grade range. I will often flail up something on a first try, dogging the hell out of it looking useless then get it next go.

My average best onsight grade would be F6c, and average quick redpoint F7b. So 4 grade difference.
Best flash 7a+, best redpoint 7c. 3 grade difference.

On an average weekend warrior trip I would tend to onsight only in my warm up grades then look for something to redpoint in a few goes. Mainly my onsighting or flashing would be on trips abroad where the routefinding is more obvious and I have a bit of time to get used to the nuances of the rock.

 

[Steve Crowe]

Jonas, am I right in thinking that you're onsight grade has stayed fairly similar for a while, but your redpoint grade has gone up a fair bit? That's just the impression I've got from what you've written on various threads. If so, what did you do? Live near good projects? Or more than that? It sounds like we have fairly similar os grades (7c+,occasional soft 8a},but I've been nowhere close to redpoint ING 8b+. But maybe that is just lack of trying ones that suit my style.

Interested to hear what your magic bullet is.

I am pretty proud of my 8a.nu log book as it is an almost perfect pyramid, well actually more of a spinning top with 4x 5’s at the bottom and 4 x 8b’s at the top and one very long 8b+ on the very top of all that. At my best I could climb some 8a+’s quickly and I’ve climbed 20 altogether. I have onsighted five 8a’s (including two 8a’s in a day although that was at Chullia), I’ve climbed 62 8a’s altogether. I’ve climbed 63 7c+’s, of which 13 were onsight.

I used to believe I could on-sight 7c+ whereas I’d suspect the 8a’s were probably going to get downgraded at some point.

I have onsighted almost half the 7c’s (38 out of 95), and more of the 7b+’s (69 out of 120).

At the other extreme, while I’ve rarely failed to onsight 7a or below I have in fact red pointed all the way down to 6b.

As for the magic bullet, I don't know but I do really enjoy getting pumped and although I'm not strong I can recover quickly on slightly sub max holds.

 

[GuyVG]

Anyway, I then went an ruined it all by dragging my reluctant frame up the Crucifixion, thereby inadvertently establishing a redpoint / on sight grade desparity which I will take to my grave....

Neil

And we thank you for that

 

[abarro81]

With respect to onsightable euro 8as, almost everywhere you're likely to go for a trip has them.. best bet is to look on 8a.nu for that area and look for ones that are popular, people sometimes call soft but don't downgrade much, and that get onsighted a lot..

I'm thinking things like Coliseum (or many other rodellar 8as),
Margalef: Dr Feelgood, Sativa, Aeroplastica L2, transilvania etc.
ATP L3 at Masriudoms
That classic 8a at Sella
Lots in Greece
Hidrophobia up at Montsant
Lourdes at Chorro
Plenty everywhere that's not an old school hardcore venue like Buoux basically! I'd have to trawl my logbook to make a long list.. Obviously I lean towards comments like "all big holds" or "no hard moves" but others may prefer something shorter or more fingery!

 

[Liamhutch89]

Hopefully not too off topic, but does anyone have an opinion on whether the flash/repoint grade disparity should be different on boulders?

I'm almost a number grade apart but do feel that I'm pretty abysmal at flashing stuff!

 

[Fultonius]

Based on nothing but a hunch, I'd expect the gap to be bigger for most boulderers.

Mine is actually closer, 7A best onsight, 7B max (one 7B+ but it's a traverse) .

 

[Bradders]

Hopefully not too off topic, but does anyone have an opinion on whether the flash/repoint grade disparity should be different on boulders?

I'm almost a number grade apart but do feel that I'm pretty abysmal at flashing stuff!

I've flashed a handful of 7B+s, versus 8A+ all time best, or more regular multi-session / siege / project max around 8A, so yeah 3 or 4 grades.

Again it probably depends a lot on whether you actually try to do it. For a long time if I was going to try a problem specifically I'd often warm up on it, rather than on other things, which pretty much precludes a flash automatically. I dont think I've ever even tried to flash a 7C in fact. I've more recently started trying again though as I think it's a good skill to practice, especially if like me "trying hard" is a bit of a weakness.