Topic split - chasing a spectre

[Doylo]

All that training and i still cant pull on shadowplay Doylo, Neither can aidan. with the G in front there are no limits, bit like chasing a spectre through walls.

Lying bald bastard. Let’s write him out of history and we can call Wedgie Wall the hardest move in N Wales.

 

[cheque]

Gaskins is the Barry Bonds of british bouldering. Needs an asterisk next to all of his FAs.

 

[Nibile]

Lying bald bastard.

Is this real life? Or has JB hacked Doylo's account?

 

[Nutty]

Gaskins is the Barry Bonds of british bouldering. Needs an asterisk next to all of his FAs.

Yes, they should.

And at the bottom of the page there should be another asterisk, followed by the phrase "look upon my works ye mighty, and despair!".

Love the G

And in the guidebook these words appear:
`My name is the G, Wad of Wads:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!'
Nothing certain remains. Round the claims
Of that colossal bloc, holdless and bare,
The hearsay and rumours stretch far away.

 

[thekettle]

Slightly off topic, but I had a play on one of those beastmaker 6 mm edges last night, I couldn't hang it in the slightest.
I can hold the 8 mm for 10, even with a few extra kg (random weight belt I found at the wall), I have no idea how you get your fingers strong enough to start pulling on them!

I finally put my 6mm's up the other day after having them for a good 2 years, and found them hard. I could just about squeeze 8 or 9 seconds out on my first good hang, but after that my skin starts to deteriorate quickly and I lose about a second every hang after (even with skin trimming :sick. I finally had a look from side on the other day, and because my beam is slightly concave, and having put them on the bottom, they are actually 8-9 degrees sloping :slap: no wonder they feel brutal (not intended as a humblebrag).

All that training and i still cant pull on shadowplay Doylo, Neither can aidan. with the G in front there are no limits, bit like chasing a spectre through walls.

This makes me wonder what Blackpool Sam could pull, since he has (a few years back anyway) pulled off the deck on Shadowplay, and even did a move AFAIK. Big lad too, possible record contender? Don't know how much he is climbing nowdays though.

There's photos on Blackpool Sams [private] insta of him pulling on and doing the second move on Shadow Play, so it was definitely possible to start it back then. It's a seriously snappy boulder (can't think of a single problem on it that hasn't snapped at some point) so no idea whether those holds are still there now.

 

[Doylo]

G went back and smashed them off to perpetuate the myth.

 

[carlisle slapper]

Slightly off topic, but I had a play on one of those beastmaker 6 mm edges last night, I couldn't hang it in the slightest.
I can hold the 8 mm for 10, even with a few extra kg (random weight belt I found at the wall), I have no idea how you get your fingers strong enough to start pulling on them!

I finally put my 6mm's up the other day after having them for a good 2 years, and found them hard. I could just about squeeze 8 or 9 seconds out on my first good hang, but after that my skin starts to deteriorate quickly and I lose about a second every hang after (even with skin trimming :sick. I finally had a look from side on the other day, and because my beam is slightly concave, and having put them on the bottom, they are actually 8-9 degrees sloping :slap: no wonder they feel brutal (not intended as a humblebrag).

All that training and i still cant pull on shadowplay Doylo, Neither can aidan. with the G in front there are no limits, bit like chasing a spectre through walls.

This makes me wonder what Blackpool Sam could pull, since he has (a few years back anyway) pulled off the deck on Shadowplay, and even did a move AFAIK. Big lad too, possible record contender? Don't know how much he is climbing nowdays though.

There's photos on Blackpool Sams [private] insta of him pulling on and doing the second move on Shadow Play, so it was definitely possible to start it back then. It's a seriously snappy boulder (can't think of a single problem on it that hasn't snapped at some point) so no idea whether those holds are still there now.

Just to put my side across and what i know about this. Because im fairly tired of armchair punters accidentally supporting a myth by armchair conjecture without ever being physically able to putting the time in to getting to know the climbs in question.

Simon asked John quite a few of my questions in the interview and theres a reason its not in the new guide. We were going to arrange a session in kentmere to sort out shadowplay but it never worked out.

A: the majority of the problems on than boulder were totally made up bi Si O' (original topo writer). John is the only person to repeat some of the totally made up ones like karma of the trees sit and little women RH and confirm the grade back in the day (before si o' ruined all the fun by taking it too far, although the highpoint was definitely threatening to knock greg out when he started asking for evidence)

B: John worked shadowplay for years (says so in his interview) yet he struggled to remember the moves in the question afterwards ( a vague series of layaways is an all time classic answer). very soon after he claimed the climb he went back to get photos and couldn't pull on anywhere meaningful for a photo for Ray wood. Hence why there are no photos (in all of rays other photos john was able to pull on just, the VNB pic is a photo of the rope being swiftly released and john falling off the holds, again Ray and DMM let this type of thing go at the time because john was always being nice allowing them to get some pics). This is literally beyond comprehension to myself after 11years of climbing 8B+ish stuff. Its like a runner claiming a sub 4 then puffing round at 8 minute miles next time out. Form never varies that wildly, if i'm not ill then at worst i'll be doing huge links on something i've just done and its not uncommon to reclimb the whole thing (caff on big bang is a good example) once the pressure is off if it was a mental barrier. Literally no one else i've ever met in the climbing world has that kind of 8C+ to 7C+ form variability.

C: I have climbed at Kentmere at least a few times a year since 2003. Nothing except the spike and block on tourniquet have come off that face. I pulled off the block on Little Women in 2008 when trying to fathom how i could ever do Si''s LWRH (john sent me a brilliant email about this as i asked for beta at uni, it apparently starts as for RE invented, Si o's made up problem which Mike adams {squeezed} in as a bad sequence on tourniquet a few years after john sent that email.

D: pulling on the start holds is like pulling on the stand pinch, it's the fluff. By pulling on i am referring to the Meat of the problem, IE on the tiny undercuts and that rank coin slot. I can pull on catapult at the start and on the jug, can i take the tick yet?

In the face of all that, 15 years on it hasn't weathered well for me and the interview well and truly burst the myth, Johns face winces worse than Prince Andrews when asked about it in that interview. and what really irks me is that with climbers like Aidan about now. Is it maybe not time people give true ability and hard work the respect it deserves? Certainly if the outdoor side of the sport is to be taken seriously in the UK. Being a local I've had Johns unobtainable ascents hanging over my climbing my whole life, at first they were a huge inspiration but after 15 years of smoke and mirrors its something which i'm jaded with now. His only trumpeteers left are disconnected armchair observers who've never tried them or other top end classic boulders of equivalent grades. There's a world of difference between bouldering "9A" in 2004 and bouldering in the lower 8s as John most likely was. Malc was the real deal after moon in terms of power problems. I'd say the next time UK bouldering moved on in strength here was with climbers of my generation.

Just to back up this waffle. I've repeated many of Malcs and Bens hardest uk offerings upto 8B/+ in my early 20s fairly quickly and added 170ish font 8's of my own to this country (roughly 280-300 uk repeats) and i cant get off the ground on a lot of the cruxes on Johns problems (even on some 8A's like atrocity exhibition). I've probably gone from being his biggest fan age 15 to a really big fly in his mythological soup at 32. one explanation is that i'm just shit and need to be hitting 150% on my deadhangs etc and learning how to climb better. Aidan Just needs to stop rinsing all those 8B+/Cs in a few tries abroad and knuckle down 10 miles from home. but really we just need to do some real G training. By that i mean, send someone a text/email that that we've repeated all his problems then avoid disclosing any more detailed info, climbing or pulling on them for the next few years and cross our fingers the initial typed words gain traction because no other evidence whatsoever is needed after that to prove the worlds hardest ever boulder problem ascents (which climbs like Shadowplay would be)

I'm coming for a Wedgie next time i'm down Doylo.

 

[Bradders]

Good post Dan. Interesting stuff.

What do you think of his other stuff? Il Pirata, Moment, At the Heart of It All, Kaizen, etc.?

Don't know how much he is climbing nowdays though.

Sam is certainly still about. He was at Trowbarrow a couple weeks ago. He was leaving as I arrived, but apparently he was trying Il Pirata and had done a few moves including in the roof (I.e. not just the lip bit).

 

[dunnyg]

Spacing was between 21cm and 21.5cm, so less than standard... it was somewhere in the middle but hard to be exact.

Both me and my idol cut down in a thread. The truth hurts.

Interesting to hear that all the G stuff set out so clearly though.

 

[thekettle]

Thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail Dan, it's really informative to hear this from 'the horses mouth' after years of vague third hand mutterings. Sounds like a seriously frustrating journey of disillusionment!
I though Kylie had lost holds aswell as Reinvented (plus Torniquet and LW), but didn't realise Reinvented was orginally an O'Conor special..
OP apologies for perpetuating the off-topic :worms:

 

[yetix]

Good post Dan. Interesting stuff.

What do you think of his other stuff? Il Pirata, Moment, At the Heart of It All, Kaizen, etc.?

Don't know how much he is climbing nowdays though.

Sam is certainly still about. He was at Trowbarrow a couple weeks ago. He was leaving as I arrived, but apparently he was trying Il Pirata and had done a few moves including in the roof (I.e. not just the lip bit).

Sam did the first move and the moves with 1 hand on the lip just before you arrived Nick, didn't see him do anything in the middle section though. I think the meat of the climb is the middle section though?

 

[Bradders]

Ah sound, I thought he'd done more in the roof bit. Sure I've been told by others that he's done all the moves at one time or another. Just interesting to see someone actually bothering to give it a go.

 

[36chambers]

Spacing was between 21cm and 21.5cm, so less than standard... it was somewhere in the middle but hard to be exact.

Both me and my idol cut down in a thread. The truth hurts.

Interesting to hear that all the G stuff set out so clearly though.

dunnyg logs practically everything as a flash, dunnyg also idolises the G. It's all making sense now.

 

[AMorris]

Thanks for taking the time to make that informative post Dan, I can see how this could be an extremely frustrating episode in british climbing for someone operating at your level in the years following his reign.

I do have a question though. It has always surprised me a little that you have never given anything 8C, since I would think, with your record of hard climbing, you would be capable of it. Is this because, for most of your career, the only 8C's in the UK have been the G unrepeatable horrorshows, and therefore had you given anything that grade you would have been claiming they were of the same unclimbable level of difficulty? The Rail and Bowden springs to mind; I have seen it in the flesh and it looks completely improbable, and heard from stronguns that it could be a sandbag.

Anyway, I will take the title of 'armchair punter' with joy, I feel like it sums my role in this forum up nicely :lol:

 

[carlisle slapper]

Kylie is post Si O' (i was referencing his original lines) but yes it lost a hold too.

I'll just clarify why the guide is as it is. Greg and I chatted it all through a bit and you'll notice there's no LW RH, no KOTT sit and no Shadowplay. As to put definite lies in print would help cement them as being trusted and someone has to draw the line when it comes to researching these things. I left the lime lines alone as my knowledge of them is less and i haven't tried them in any great capacity. Again the only photo is of John on the 7A+ lip as he couldn't pull on in the crux on the roof shortly after writing it up when he went back with Ray (Poor Ray), a move he only did one in a hundred goes soeth the legend says.
If you imagine climbing a line like that you cant just float up them, somewhere the physics needs to make sense, there has to be opposition to hold on. Shadowplay has no real feet for the utter awfulness of the handholds so the physics of actually moving between the holds in the middle is insane. I used to kid myself that john must've ragged a heel toe in the old Spike foot on Torniquet out right (inspite of the fact he's tiny) but Shark asked that question in the interview and he denied every needing a big foot. I would love to be proved wrong on all this as i spent a good amount of time upto 2009ish giving John the benefit of the doubt with the naivety of youth, my posts are still on here somewhere. But in recent, post interview years and with the next generation of wads coming through locally like Aidan and Tim etc its all felt like a bit of a total shambles trying to explain why johns problems are so impossible when everything else is doable with effort. This has been my experience too, i can repeat problems of other proven climbers with ease in many cases and with effort in others. Just not Johns nor can i even pull on so either he went from being a decent climber who got beaten in comps by the likes of birkett and welford etc to someone who is the strongest climber the world has ever seen in the space of a few years. which is thankfully back on topic.
For those wanting a bit of viewing comparison of climbing ability, watch the footage of John trying the dice prow (8Aish and the only unedited footage of john on an 8 available on the web) in glenmacnass and then watch Aidans colorado video and remember he's much weaker than Johns problems still. Then come back to me and explain how John is so much better. I cant stress enough how consistent good climbers form is as a rule, true strength doesn't disappear on an afternoon and come back in the morning (johns claim to bock was that he was 6 grades stronger at 5am and thats why he couldnt do any moves on gossip in bocks presence). Eddie hall can still deadlift 400kg like its nothing years after giving up training hard for deadlift. If you spend years training and gaining strength it will stay with you, especially if you apply it. I totally smashed my radius to pieces intraarticularly and had my schaphoid screwed back together, i tore apart the ulna side of the joint (still giving me issues) and after 3 months i was sport climbing 8b again. After 6 months i bouldered "8B" in font again in a few tries (bibop assis) for bouldering because i have a form forgetting curve that quickly restores all the atrophy once the body is healthy again and thankfully everything else is still there. Hard work never just disappears unless of illness or something really serious like neuromuscular scary stuff. the G is younger than Moon and i'm sure he could still whip up moment of clarity on a toppy if its only 8A+ just from off the couch strength alone.

I've never met Sam or seen him climb but if he's actually repeated Kaizen then he must have some incredible strength and would be a good absolute weight contender. in 2019 its easier than ever to do things in front of a camera. If people dont want to be in any form of limelight that's totally fine but it should never be an excuse to still make claims from the back row without ever backing it up as it puts double standards on those who make the effort to clear doubt from the top end of what is much more of an honest sport than its ever been. To be backing up Johns problem claims using the same methods that John used is definitely not progress for bouldering IMO.

John is the reason i have always capped my grades in the UK to effectively give his problems room to breathe, as until the interview questions on shadowplay i always gave him the benefit of the doubt and tried to factor in my own efforts into the spectrum between the sky high power of johns and the relative ease of things the uk's first non G 8B+ monklife (which'd be 8A+ using johns problems on the scale based font 7C into a one move 7C+ roughly) If i were to give anything 8C but not have repeated johns problems despite trying then i'd be a fraud to myself as if he's truthful i'd know i was kidding myself. The Rail is much much easier than shadowplay. I'd say crescendo and bombadil are easily as hard but in different styles. Grades are a nonsense really (especially at the top end as you lose the averaging factor), the amount of variation worldwide is understandable. In order to have accurate grades there needs to be crossover between climbers, if the crossover isnt there the grades can vary hugely like guessing the weight of a bag of flower to the nearest gram. I'm content with problems at my own limit and chuffed that i've found stuff to really test me. The same as jumping on a fingerboard and pulling 101kg is a nonsense I really really tried on bombadil this year and i think that'll stay with me regardless of whether it gets ignored. It's the only problem im truly proud of. Inspite of being up there on my own and 1 camera breaking i still filmed it with my back up camera though, mostly for myself but also as a nod to keep the integrity at the top end of UKB.

 

[Fiend]

Good detailed post Dan, it's appreciated having these issues laid out clearly rather than nudges and hints and "tactful" obfuscation.

Edit: That teapot is really uncanny! Spooky...

 

[Will Hunt]

Can someone please just check in on Doylo and Danny and see that they're safe? Thanks x

 

[SA Chris]

Can someone please just check in on Doylo and Danny and see that they're safe? Thanks x

They are at lining up to get their JG is God tattoos removed, and the Livestrong Godskin wrist bands surgically removed.

 

[carlisle slapper]

I think one of the most naturally strong (and in the tall camp) climbers i've ever met is Ryan Pasquill and i'd say his ascent of shallow groove is the most undervalued ascent in uk bouldering. That is a problem that has repelled all comers, including myself (i've done the moves but i personally find them harder than those on monklife for example) Either ryan just struggled on a G 8A and clutched it out the bag, doubling the top move with all his lank and finger strength or he pulled off the first ascent of a problem that has repelled attempts by the best of the best since (i know which i find more likely). I'd argue Shallow groove was worth 8B+ for most people and the fact it's been unrepeated for so long on a very popular boulder is a decent sign it's not piss. Im not sure of the date Ryan did it (nige might remember) but it really stands out in my mind as a mega impressive effort by one of our most naturally talented ever climbers. Johns explanation when asked about it in the interview makes no sense if you've climbed on it, he talks of matching the first gaston and reaching the top? hes 10cm shorter than Ryan and myself and i've seen really good shorter climbers like Dave Jones get to the last move ok on that problem but be miles off the jump as you are jumping off an overhanging ledge its the most morpho move you could hope to set. Again in 18years at his local crag you'd think he'd have chucked a lap on it once in a while and still could. Obviously again for Simmos photos it was too hot so he just did that first move(johns words from his interview). Made an inspiring poster though. It's not exactly shadowplay but i'd love to see john chuck a lap on the line ryan did up the groove, as for someone of his height it'd be really impressive.
Again non of Johns generation actively sought to repeat his additions fast or have much crossover at all, and all have totally ignored my own problems so there's 0% crossover there. infact the general climbing of problems in the uk is generally lucky if its near 50 eights from people of your age GME rather than the definitely >150 you'd see from the likes of jackpal, mason, turner Ned in the uk these days. I think Dmac and Mike are the only older ones who've repeated a few of my lines but they're either things i did over 11 years ago like serendipity or things i did on a short holiday like Cruachan rather than something i've put time into as an adult. Its very much been left upto myself and Aidan's only really tried stuff i've shoved him on as the poor chap grew up near me. Both Kott sit (which we havent done yet) and Traci lords sit add context (we built the landing up above the stream but this removes 2 moves from where G said he started). a decade ago with the confidence of knowing nothing and having tried nothing i really got behind Johns cause too, naughty bock and his chisels, he's hardly an angel.

 

[cowboyhat]

Only God forgives

which as it turns out for Gaskins, is fine!