The Dewin Stone - New 9a+ Slab from Franco

[Bradders]

Based on the write up on UKC including this:

Potential 50 footer down the slab from the end, so kind of has an E10 vibe when you're tired on redpoint

I guess not

 

[El Mocho]

Sounds like Caff has been to look at it:

"Is a good effort from Franco. The start to gain Meltdown is easier than Meltdown start. Less hard moves. Finish will be punchy on the full link though."

:boxing:

 

[36chambers]

Looking at those lines without context, but knowing Franco's involved, I definitely would have assumed that one was highlighting where a classic climb went and the other was showing the route Franco took when he told instagram he repeated said classic :lol:

 

[Fiend]

Especially the purple one.

 

[northern yob]

WTF

So what on earth is going on with this? The whole knotted rope thing is bollocks, in my mind it’s basically not a route, what he’s done is a little better than a top rope ascent. If he’s not put the bolts in because he wants it to be a trad route, then it’s an unfinished project and doesn’t deserve a name and grade. If he’s gonna bolt it with bolts where the knots were it’s far from ideal, and in my eyes a legitimate ascent hasn’t occurred….. is this ok these days?

I’ve held off on this because I sound like a miserable old twat, it’s becoming more apparent to me that I’m turning into Ken Wilson, but do people really think this is ok…?

 

[Wellsy]

I think people probably do yeah

 

[yetix]

Everyone's journey in climbing is their own... But I agree if it was me it would feel like this was a project still. But if Franco is content with what he's done and is open about what he's done that's fine too

 

[SA Chris]

I'm so far off the mark that my opinons don't really matter, but I personally think it's a bit shit, and verging on hypocrisy. Happy to use bolts that someone else has placed, but reluctant to place your own? Shame, as it puts a bit of a tarnish on what looks like a phenomenal piece of climbing.

 

[petejh]

This is great. As a keen new route developer I'm never going to bother putting bolts in a new route again - dropping a temporary knotted rope is way easier! Imagine all the time and physical effort new routers have wasted bolting when they could have not bothered and done the routes this way. Low impact too. Get the tick, move on, fuck anyone else's experience.

 

[Paul B]

I’ve held off on this because I sound like a miserable old twat, it’s becoming more apparent to me that I’m turning into Ken Wilson, but do people really think this is ok…?

I'm also a miserable twat, but no, I'm the same as you. From my understanding the detail of the knotted rope was also omitted from the UKC article which seems somewhat ...incomplete?

 

[andy moles]

I'm not sure why clipping a knotted rope instead of bolts would invalidate the ascent. Why's it any different to having used removable bolts, in terms of the mechanics of the lead?

But agree it's a weird thing to do. If it was actually to be done on trad gear only (which seems fanciful as no one but Franco is even notionally interested in semi-soloing something like this), that will mean either removing or ignoring the existing bolts on Meltdown anyway.

Then again, who cares. It's not like he's done a new 7a at a good crag and left it half unequipped. This route is totally niche. For the few people who will want to try it, hanging a knotted rope is hardly a make-or-break inconvenience.

My guess? It's so that Franco can say he's never placed a bolt, in the same vein as avoiding climbing any 8s before climbing a 9. Amiright?

 

[Will Hunt]

In my opinion it's legit but really lazy not to put the bolts in where the knots were, even if that's done after the fact. Is it likely to ever get the mooted trad ascent? Probably not.
Feels a bit like Franco was scraping the barrel for how to make this one in any way controversial. Get creative, Franco! You could easily have gone out at night, chipped it, complained that someone had chipped it, filled them back in, done a shit under the route, been really cross about someone shitting under your route, hung a big 30m high banner with a glamour photo of yourself and the words "Franco's project do not touch or else" on it, stolen the banner, been really cross that the banner went missing. Seriously it's not hard.
I might set myself up as a pro-climber agency: Band of Turds.

 

[Johnny Brown]

WTF

So what on earth is going on with this? The whole knotted rope thing is bollocks, in my mind it’s basically not a route, what he’s done is a little better than a top rope ascent. If he’s not put the bolts in because he wants it to be a trad route, then it’s an unfinished project and doesn’t deserve a name and grade. If he’s gonna bolt it with bolts where the knots were it’s far from ideal, and in my eyes a legitimate ascent hasn’t occurred….. is this ok these days?

Hilarious isn't it? Franco, as usual, wanting to have his cake and eat it. I applaud him for not bolting it and don't want to encourage it, but unfortunately taking that stand does prevent you from claiming it as a sport route. To not mention this up front is totally misleading. There are plenty of times top climbers have claimed things as top rope problems and publicised them as such - a challenge for others to improve on - and sometimes their names have been retained and ascents remain worthy of recording. But rule one is be honest and open.

It's so that Franco can say he's never placed a bolt,

Yes, he's said that. And also lacks the competence, which given his experiments with glue I think we should keep him well away from the tools as long as possible.

I'm not sure why clipping a knotted rope instead of bolts would invalidate the ascent. Why's it any different to having used removable bolts, in terms of the mechanics of the lead?

Removable bolts require drilling holes obviously, which would remain in the same place for subsequent ascents. But fundamentally I don't think this style has any precedence for being considered legitimate, it's effectively a weird top-rope. The subterfuge would suggest he wanted it to gain some legitimacy before the beans were spilled.

 

[teestub]

Removable bolts require drilling holes obviously, which would remain in the same place for subsequent ascents. But fundamentally I don't think this style has any precedence for being considered legitimate, it's effectively a weird top-rope. The subterfuge would suggest he wanted it to gain some legitimacy before the beans were spilled.

This is the question I was going to ask, I couldn't think of any other examples of someone climbing something with a knotted rope as protection, would be happy for some examples from people who are saying it is legit. I guess if someone wanted to repeat it in a similar style they could also use a knotted rope to protect the top bit that Franco hasn't bolted too?!

 

[Will Hunt]

I guess if someone wanted to repeat it in a similar style they could also use a knotted rope to protect the top bit that Franco hasn't bolted too?!

They could indeed. Or they could add the bolts and any extras they wanted. Which is what happens normally with sport routes that have been badly bolted.

 

[T_B]

Quite a few Lakes FAs were done with pegs that were immediately removed. Similar in my view.

 

[stone]

Like others have said on here, is it much of a hassle to put a knotted rope down a slab though?

I'd image it would be no more hassle than putting the draws on a bolted route. It is not as though most/any ascentionists would be climbing up, placing-the-draws-in-one-free-push.

I guess the difference from top-roping is that you have to take a hand off to clip. I'm also impressed by some top-roping feats though (eg Zippy onsight-top-roping hard grit test-pieces back in the day and that guy who top-roped Cry-Freedom at Malham).

It all seems to me pretty harmless. I agree that initially not mentioning it in interviews etc adds an additional layer of zany-ness though!

In France they have the ethic that equipping a sport route confers the right to name it regardless of whether the equipper can climb it. I guess some French bolter could give that a go ;D

 

[andy moles]

Removable bolts require drilling holes obviously, which would remain in the same place for subsequent ascents. But fundamentally I don't think this style has any precedence for being considered legitimate, it's effectively a weird top-rope. The subterfuge would suggest he wanted it to gain some legitimacy before the beans were spilled.

I don't think it's right to call it a weird top-rope. He was still leading between clippable points with all the normal scope for falling etc, it's just that some of those clippable points were temporary instead of fixed.

Can't deny there's no precedent though, and if you take this to its logical conclusion it does become very silly - you could claim any new line as a 'sport route' in this way, without having to place a bolt.

I'm optimistic that it won't catch on...

 

[Paul B]

I don't think it's right to call it a weird top-rope. He was still leading between clippable points with all the normal scope for falling etc, it's just that some of those clippable points were temporary instead of fixed.

Why? It's exactly what some people do to TR self-belay on things. Didn't someone famously screw this up somewhere quite serious, letting the knotted rope swing out of reach?

 

[Bonjoy]

If this is a legitimate lead/FA then (unless I'm missing something fundamental) the same tactic applied to any bit of rock would also be a legitimate lead.
That's quite a lot of trad FAs that suddenly got a whole lot more doable at a stroke!