The demonisation of bold trad

[Oldmanmatt]

Just as a reference point, as an aside to establish some sort of “acceptable risk” standard amongst UKBites…

What was your riskiest but planned/considered adventure? Climbing related or otherwise.

Not an impetuous act, something you thought about and entered into risk aware?
Change names and locations if required.

 

[Hoseyb]

Acceptable risk depends on perceived risk.
At no point had I entered into a scenario where I wasn't confident I could mitigate the risk of death for instance.

Risks I have accepted are injury (non permanent), pain, and the aftermath of trauma.

A climbing example would be the fa of Twll Love in Twll Mawr. I was confident enough that I could reverse thrusters to safety if I could detect the wheels coming off. Indeed when my chosen line ramped up the technicalities above a cobweb of inadequate gear. Rather than giving in to the sirens call, I looked for the exits and accepted an inferior line. Close call though as the moves looked delicious, but probably deadly.

A non climbing adventure was my doomed attempt to coasteer Cilan Head. Again a lot of planning went in, but then a navigational error led us to start from the other end (Doris) from our plan. Unforeseen risk (strong easterly currents and a sea floor magnifying the swell) almost chopped me, however my partner in the adventure was able to organise a rescue and retreat. I guess he was my planned for mitigating factor. However, it was a close call.

 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Just replying to Andy Moles first, I think this post from Toby conveys things quite well.

"Illusory control over high risk" - obviously misquoted; hope that's OK Toby - is significant here, in terms of how we perceive risk, and risky situations. I don't want to go too far down the hole into discussion about that, but there's a common misconception that hard bold climbing is all about being in a "Don't sneeze at the wrong time situation". Ironically, I'd say this is closer to the truth on harder headpoints, where if you get "off line" you're more likely to crash.

Interesting thread. I used to do some bold routes but I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a bold climber, now or then.
I enjoyed the experience of having a degree of control over a relatively high level of risk, however illusory that may have been. But the experiences where I felt that I'd lost control and was merely fighting for survival rather unpleasant and they always left a feeling of guilt and nausea. Those were thankfully few, and I think many people feel like that, there is a very small minority of people who revel in that feeling of really being on the edge but I'm not one of them. It isn't necessarily grade dependent either; I didn't really like last slip in Avon even though I found it easy at the time and had no problems, however I loved climbing things like the Cad or edge lane. Perhaps it may just depend upon if I was in the right mood. I think theres probably a reduced capacity for perceived risk nowadays, but that many people don't take the risks of say, sport climbing seriously enough while dismissing trad as too dangerous for them. I wouldn't say I'd noticed anyone really frowning on bold climbers though.

By "rolling the dice" I'm not meaning that it determines the result entirely, but a higher level of uncertainty. I think that what we really "play" for, are those moments where we're actually committed to "what happens in between". You're living a bit, in that moment; the future isn't something you have as much of the luxury of thinking you can determine. Alain Robert spoke to a psychologist who understood that Alain's exploits were more about being less in control, not more.
In those moments, you are like an observer. You lose the tension of "being afraid of losing". It's a wonderful place to be, and there's a relief from other things.

Imagine strapping yourself into the command module of a rocket. Now that's a pretty risky endeavor! You have to make a committed decision to take the ride, but you're so unable to control everything, that you're going to be able to wonder at the fabulous splendour of the earth. Imagine that.

In moments like that, I think you can feel connected to the sense of being part of everything, rather than being an ego in a bubble. You can't dance very well, if you're paranoid about how well you perform.
It's the connection/disconnection which I believe is the reward/risk balance, and the possibility of physical harm is part of the collection of hazards that we know we have to accept, in order to play the deeper game.

I'm sure most of us will have experienced it, standing on a couple of Gritstone smears, trying to reach tentatively out to the arete, but knowing that there's no way of stretching to that position without committing to a step across, and letting go of what feels like the more solid position.

From the work of the psychoanalyst Lacan, there's a term called Méconnaissance - or "misrecognition" - which tries to capture the false reflection we may have been given, of somehow existing separately from everything we're really a part of. When we're in that state - or living lives based on the faulty reflection we were given - we can feel under attack from life, or sense that ("external") life happens to ("internal") me. Depending on the level of that burden in our lives, we are more or less likely to seek ways of offloading some of it.

My worst climbing experience was on High Neb Buttress at Stanage. I was slightly distracted at the crux, and just stood up, but realised that I was falling backwards. I shot out an arm, and only just caught the break. It was a really really horrible experience, full of the "feeling of guilt and nausea" that Toby refers to. That's only happened once, though there have been other close calls. Funnily enough, many years ago, I'd rocked up in the Avon Gorge, and someone thought they'd sandbag me, and point me at Last Slip. Found it reasonably tricky, but particularly absorbing at the time.

Being absorbed away from other things is a major part of why we do what we do, isn't it. The familiarity of other hazards, just makes them seem less noticeable.

Oh, and:

Yeah, no question Neil’s a genuine guy.

+1

 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Acceptable risk depends on perceived risk.
At no point had I entered into a scenario where I wasn't confident I could mitigate the risk of death for instance.

Risks I have accepted are injury (non permanent), pain, and the aftermath of trauma.

A climbing example would be the fa of Twll Love in Twll Mawr. I was confident enough that I could reverse thrusters to safety if I could detect the wheels coming off. Indeed when my chosen line ramped up the technicalities above a cobweb of inadequate gear. Rather than giving in to the sirens call, I looked for the exits and accepted an inferior line. Close call though as the moves looked delicious, but probably deadly.

A non climbing adventure was my doomed attempt to coasteer Cilan Head. Again a lot of planning went in, but then a navigational error led us to start from the other end (Doris) from our plan. Unforeseen risk (strong easterly currents and a sea floor magnifying the swell) almost chopped me, however my partner in the adventure was able to organise a rescue and retreat. I guess he was my planned for mitigating factor. However, it was a close call.

I love your use of language Hosey. The video is great too.
I grew up on a diet of coasteering and dicey retreats on the North Devon coast 8)

The relative scale of you and the big hole captures the essence well. The big flake reminds me of Spacewalk on Lundy. That was a great adventure, snuck in quickly before catching the ferry back, although it fell down later..!

Regarding risk - or rather consequences - on anything harder, I'd mentally prepare for the worst, mainly because you can't really climb well enough if you're not fully committed. I believe there's an element of that at all levels though. If you're soloing something because "you know you can do it", you're probably in a very dangerous position.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

Acceptable risk depends on perceived risk.
At no point had I entered into a scenario where I wasn't confident I could mitigate the risk of death for instance.

Risks I have accepted are injury (non permanent), pain, and the aftermath of trauma.

A climbing example would be the fa of Twll Love in Twll Mawr. I was confident enough that I could reverse thrusters to safety if I could detect the wheels coming off. Indeed when my chosen line ramped up the technicalities above a cobweb of inadequate gear. Rather than giving in to the sirens call, I looked for the exits and accepted an inferior line. Close call though as the moves looked delicious, but probably deadly.

A non climbing adventure was my doomed attempt to coasteer Cilan Head. Again a lot of planning went in, but then a navigational error led us to start from the other end (Doris) from our plan. Unforeseen risk (strong easterly currents and a sea floor magnifying the swell) almost chopped me, however my partner in the adventure was able to organise a rescue and retreat. I guess he was my planned for mitigating factor. However, it was a close call.

I love your use of language Hosey. The video is great too.
I grew up on a diet of coasteering and dicey retreats on the North Devon coast 8)

The relative scale of you and the big hole captures the essence well. The big flake reminds me of Spacewalk on Lundy. That was a great adventure, snuck in quickly before catching the ferry back, although it fell down later..!

Regarding risk - or rather consequences - on anything harder, I'd mentally prepare for the worst, mainly because you can't really climb well enough if you're not fully committed. I believe there's an element of that at all levels though. If you're soloing something because "you know you can do it", you're probably in a very dangerous position.

I have never been a bold climber, despite all my scrapes and adventures. I am, in truth, desperately scared of heights (I don’t believe I’ve actually told anybody that before, that wasn’t a very close friend) and it’s always been the biggest single drag on my climbing. If I don’t spend enough time, in enough exposure, to maintain a level of acclimatisation, I have to start from scratch and that takes a great deal of emotional effort. Learning to pilot helicopters was both a deliberate attempt to overcome that fear and an internal ordeal as great as any in my life. I find it easier to cope with mountaineering exposure than pure rockface exposure, too, and I don’t know why. I have Fast Roped out of Helo’s and jumped from them and still go and deliberately jump off very high cliffs and it’s really me, still, trying to quash that weakness and trying to convince myself that it hasn’t taken every ounce of my will power to do so. When climbing, I will make all sorts of excuses about being pumped out etc, when I’m actually just unable to overcome my fear on that day, because I just can’t get my head straight. Yet I have still made some quite hard ascents in places like the Verdon and the Dolomites etc and been leading multi pitch trad since I was 12. I’ve never been able to muster more than E4/5 though. I backed off Eroica three times as a youngster (18/19) before I manage to push through. Darkinbad, went down with similar angst and a very understanding buddy, but a good three years later.

I have, frequently, gone into situations and expeditions, with very real expectations of not coming back or not coming back whole. I don’t think I ever did any sort of mental preparation for that, though, just lots and lots of physical training and theoretical prep and planning, as if that could control the dice. I can pin point the exact moment I stopped (woke up?). I was really quite obsessed with getting back onto the U533 (and my career, but different story) and the whole Technical Diving world. However, my life had changed, without my actually acknowledging it yet. My wife was six months pregnant with No.1.
Technical Diving, at that level, was months of training and planning, for 10 minutes at depth and a couple of hours of decompression and ascent in the blue. We were still predominantly open circuit divers, but a couple of the team had begun a transition into closed circuit rebreathers. We were on a training dive on the wreck of the Innes, around 25km off Fujairah when one of those rebreathers exploded (O2 leak and a spark/compression ignition, who knows. There was a pop and it went off like a rocket pack, burning almost instantly through the Fiberglass deck of our boat and igniting the fuel tank).
Anyway, bobbing around in the Indian Ocean, with a chunk of plastic shrapnel in my leg, watching all of our carefully prepared survival equipment and multiple comms devices/radios/flares etc, vanish in smoke; lead to a realisation that I really wasn’t in any sort of control over my own destiny, in any shape or form and that continuing wasn’t an option (actually, at that moment I had no real hope of being rescued or making a miraculous swim to shore).
It wasn’t the first epic of my life, but it was the first where I had neglected a responsibility to another human that depended on me. Breaking a loved one’s heart was a selfishly acceptable risk, leaving my child without a parent, I realised was unacceptable. Unfortunately I had to have that beaten into my thick skull the hard way.

So, I went from simply dealing with risk, by ignoring it, to using it as my primary determinant.

I am, 16 years later, finding that surprisingly difficult and have very itchy feet. All of my kids are quite independent and I am actively seeking other ways to increase my “risk” without going too far. Essentially I need a new job, with some excitement/interest value, rather than heading right back into full on shit. Watch this space, because my RN stuff went back on hold again (18 moths of being messed around), I interviewed for something else, passed and hopefully will begin training in November, assuming my security clearances all go through, medicals all done and nothing except a second MMR jab on the 23rd, so fingers crossed. I digress, but I’m excited at the prospect of a new adventure, even if I don’t want to jinx it.

That last line sums it up, doesn’t it? I am excited for the prospect of a new adventure, because, without that prospect, I feel like I am just treading water, watching the boat of my life burning and the planning and execution of a project (the greater and riskier the better) gives me a sense of meaning and purpose.

For reference, having kids and the whole family thing, might be the biggest and scariest, adventure I’ve ever had. However, I have to realise that my part in that has significantly reduced and that expedition leadership has to be handed over to the next generation, pretty soon.

 

[andy moles]

Thanks Dave for taking the time to give such a detailed reply.

It's interesting to read and attempt to map onto my best attempt to imagine what it feels like to solo something like Terra Cotta, an attempt which is guaranteed to be inadequate...

Much of that I can relate to, particularly the moments of dissolution of self/ sense of otherness from the world. Though I find it elusive. But I feel like I can identify with the feeling, when you cannot know the dancer from the dance, in other ways, that don't need to involve a real sense of threat of harm (and I don't just mean swallowing psychedelics). Perhaps without risk there can never be quite the same character or intensity? I can certainly imagine why the feeling would be ample reward for the risk, if only you're able to ignore the chimp brain screaming that if you fuck up now, you die.

The 'loss of control' aspect is almost paradoxical, because in such moments you are required to exercise the ultimate control - anything else could be fatal - but I guess it bypasses the usual top-down sense of volition, more feeling than thinking.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

I’m having a right nostalgic weekend (cooped up with sick kids) and I google Darkinbad and turned up your article Andy. Really enjoyed it. I have crossed Ulysseses off my “must get around to reading” list, ta. I might even open UKC more often, too. I grew up in St Tudy and Pentire was the home of many ambitions, though I found it an extremely intimidating crag. Even watched them throw “M’Lady” off the top, filming “The Three Musketeers”, when I was a kid (edit: kid I was in my 20’s and home on leave, it was after Eroica (91), pre Darkinbad (95)) (my dad, as the local copper, was “security” on the set. I got sent out with his lunch and managed to hang around for a while) and seeing the dummy thump into the boulders, probably didn’t make it any less intimidating…
Stupid that the thought of that crag is giving me sweaty palms, given that (along with a certain, North of the border, wall owner) we explored deep into the old lead mine there, a far riskier proposition than the climbing.

 

[andy moles]

Thanks. What an amazing wall that is. After doing that and Il Duce a few days previously I was wildly enthused to go back and do more on that coast, check out some of the unrepeated stuff on the north side of Tintagel etc, but as these things often go I haven't yet been back.

 

[remus]

On the subject of E9s in good style I forgot about Pete Whittaker's flash of Ronny Medelsvensson which gets 8b. Dunno how much beta he had so not sure where it sits on the onsight-basically a headpoint spectrum.

 

[teestub]

Maybe Gresham was just testing the running for how this would be received?
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2021/09/lexicon_e11_7a_-_first_ascent_on_pavey_ark_by_neil_gresham-72872

 

[Wil]

Good thread. I've really enjoyed reading the contributions.

My only input, with limited time, is that Neil's "demonisation" comment isn't a spur of the moment throwaway. It's also what he told me when I interviewed him 18 months ago for the Factor Two episode Deep Play.

I think it was borne from seeing a shift in the attitudes and ambitions of people he coaches. The only real anecdote he told me actually related to all trad being unjustifiably dangerous though.

My conclusion, from conversations with Patch, Leo, Bransby and others, is that the north Wales scene in the 90s had such reverence for boldness that it really felt like that was the game. That scene doesn't exist in the same way these days. That's the climbing world that inspired me when I started too, even if I wasn't losing sleep over wanting to OS Indian Face like Leo.

 

[edshakey]

My conclusion, from conversations with Patch, Leo, Bransby and others, is that the north Wales scene in the 90s had such reverence for boldness that it really felt like that was the game. That scene doesn't exist in the same way these days. That's the climbing world that inspired me when I started too, even if I wasn't losing sleep over wanting to OS Indian Face like Leo.

Sounds like it could only ever have gone in one direction from there then - any change from this would appear to be a step towards "demonisation"

 

[jwi]

If you want to reach 9A* or 9c* you better not have some stupid ankle injury or other complex fractures holding training back for months during your must productive years (from teenager to mid twenties).

(* replace by 9B and 10a if you plan to reach the level ten years hence)

 

[ToxicBilberry]

Looking through old chuffing threads (as routes are superior to bouldering ) I came across this gem. Some fantastic posts by Dave - hope you’re well Dave!

It made me think of a piece I’m writing on climbing and the left hand path. I’m currently making a mental list of all things to reject whenever possible. The first thing on my list is the Clip-Stick.

I think that was the inflection point, when the clip stick became ubiquitous. Of course I’d advice everyone to use clip sticks and helmets and all that stuff all of the time. But from now on I’m completely rejecting clip sticks.