The demonisation of bold trad

[andy moles]

I remember reading something in the last couple of years, I think on a UKC thread, that was disapproving of soloing in a way that I'd never seen before

Since the first lockdown, I wouldn't be too surprised by any view posted on UKC. Which is not to say views haven't in fact changed, but it's near Youtube level at times as a bottom trawl of opinion.

 

[duncan]

Is this the profit of trad. Neil Gresham who insta-ntly blocked me for gently questioning his retrobolting of a classic E5?!

Bold trad. was always frowned-on by normal people. The difference between 1981 and 2021 is that normal people now go climbing.

 

[SA Chris]

Honnhold has become a care salesman.

Great!

 

[mrjonathanr]

Bold trad. was always frowned-on by normal people. The difference between 1981 and 2021 is that normal people now go climbing.

:lol: :clap2:

 

[colin8ll]

There's different types of bold climbing though aren't there? In MacLeod's insta post (on which Gresh commented) he describes a type of climbing where he believes he can control all the variables given sufficient training and preparation. Contrast this with Franco's latest post where the great line he's found has "...adventure crimping on suspect granite, with terrible gear. It seemed almost entirely tech 6c on snapping holds...".

There's bold you can prepare for and then there's bold that essentially involves rolling a dice regarding snappy rock. I find the latter far more objectionable.

 

[abarro81]

There's bold you can prepare for and then there's bold that essentially involves rolling a dice regarding snappy rock. I find the latter far more objectionable.

Let's be honest, choss is shit. Dangerous choss is even shitter.

 

[Teaboy]

Its a nonsense comment but at worst its a bit of hyperbole at best its just that NG doesn't really understand what demonise means. Either way I'm not sure its more of a reaction than starting a new thread on a below the line Insta comment and the subsequent sniping (I mean, "Isn’t he some sort of omnipotent climbing demi-god and divine arbiter? Pretty sure that’s what he said he is, so he must be")

That aside my big grievance about the depiction of trad these days is the way it seems to be only focused on headpoint ascents. In the 'competition climbers going outdoors' thread Franco said something like trad climbing in the UK had reached a ceiling totally ignoring the fact that, apart from Caff, on-sight trad has been stagnant for years. Has anyone else moved on from Dawes on Hardback Thesaurus or Bransbury attempting Impact Day? I guess I could be out of the loop (again!) and things have moved on E7 and E8 on-sights have moved past being news worthy?

 

[cheque]

I guess I could be out of the loop (again!) and things have moved on E7 and E8 on-sights have moved past being news worthy?

There was one in the significant repeats thread yesterday.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

There's bold you can prepare for and then there's bold that essentially involves rolling a dice regarding snappy rock. I find the latter far more objectionable.

Let's be honest, choss is shit. Dangerous choss is even shitter.

Surely, all criticism of either “bold trad” (whatever that is, really, because place your gear badly enough and there are some pretty bold HVS’s out there) or Soloing, boils down to the critic saying “I don’t see the point and feel the risk is too great for me and therefore too great for the person performing the act” and is no different from any other similar criticism of any other activity (skateboarding, parkour, BASE, you name it).
When we were developing Technical and Mixed Gas Scuba in the late 1900s early 20s, we were losing people all over. We were constantly slagged off by both the professional (SCUBA instructor) community, Recreational and club divers, Commercial divers etc etc, clubs banned us. Feldman and the Rouse’s died at what, within a few years would be seen as a shallow dive (70msw) and the diving world ramped up the rhetoric, by the time my team dived the U533 (138msw) my mate John Bennet had taken the record to 300msw and a team in the Med had hit the Britannic (120msw). John died within a few months after the U533 and only weeks after we’d dived the MV Energy and Determination together (a mere 84msw on the bottom). Seriously, people were dying in caves, wrecks and even open water, all over the world, developing this stuff.

Now, PADI ()run “Technical Diving” courses. They even gave it a new, trendy, name “Techrec”. So, it’s just another, mainstream-extreme sport and part of the community as a whole.

Pretty sure even recreational diving has a higher fatality/serious injury rate than “climbing as a whole” and every single aspect of/type of climbing and mountaineering was vastly more dangerous in it’s infancy than it is now.
I mean, anybody who began climbing after many, many decades of development, that has seriously mitigated the consequences of falling, is naturally going to have a twisted view of the risks involved and of those who paid highly for the, now, “sport” to be as safe as it is.

It’s all just the meaningless chatter of the critic and the Kudos belongs to the human being in the ring, to paraphrase Rosey.

 

[Teaboy]

In reply to Cheque:
Yes, women’s trad standards have improved massively, it’s hard to gague if the same is true of mens. I forgot to mention Neil Dickson in my previous post who has pushed things a bit

 

[Bonjoy]

That aside my big grievance about the depiction of trad these days is the way it seems to be only focused on headpoint ascents. In the 'competition climbers going outdoors' thread Franco said something like trad climbing in the UK had reached a ceiling totally ignoring the fact that, apart from Caff, on-sight trad has been stagnant for years. Has anyone else moved on from Dawes on Hardback Thesaurus or Bransbury attempting Impact Day? I guess I could be out of the loop (again!) and things have moved on E7 and E8 on-sights have moved past being news worthy?

Surely sanity precludes the constant 'progress' your comment implies is desirable. I'd ask who this progress is desirable for? The audience (average climbers) or the participant? If the former, a community of generally not very bold people egging a few outliers into performing ever more dangerous acts for the entertainment of the group is somewhat questionable. If the latter, then surely it's wholly personal to the individual, and ascents don't need to be one step bolder than the boldest climb ever in order to be worthwhile. Even if boldness is directly proportional to reward, surely at some point the reward (however large) becomes not worth the cost, i.e. your very real chance of dying to put it bluntly. Perhaps the boldest climbers climb things which are bold enough to feed the rat and they don't need to go any bolder. Perhaps some were doing it for peer recognition, which might be more conditional now, or less effusive, so have toned it down or stopped. None of that is an implied criticism of bold climbing, just the notion of 'progress' itself in this context.

 

[andy moles]

I'm not sure its more of a reaction than starting a new thread on a below the line Insta comment

Is starting a new thread not the done thing? Clearly I don't really keep up, but I'm laid up in bed this week, and the way he'd put it made me curious if I've been missing something.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

That aside my big grievance about the depiction of trad these days is the way it seems to be only focused on headpoint ascents. In the 'competition climbers going outdoors' thread Franco said something like trad climbing in the UK had reached a ceiling totally ignoring the fact that, apart from Caff, on-sight trad has been stagnant for years. Has anyone else moved on from Dawes on Hardback Thesaurus or Bransbury attempting Impact Day? I guess I could be out of the loop (again!) and things have moved on E7 and E8 on-sights have moved past being news worthy?

Surely sanity precludes the constant 'progress' your comment implies is desirable. I'd ask who this progress is desirable for? The audience (average climbers) or the participant? If the former, a community of generally not very bold people egging a few outliers into performing ever more dangerous acts for the entertainment of the group seems a bit off to me. If the latter, then surely it's wholly personal to the individual, and ascents don't need to be one step bolder than the boldest climb ever in order to be worthwhile. Even if boldness is directly proportional to a sense of reward, surely at some point the reward (however large) becomes not worth the price i.e. your very real chance of dying to put it bluntly. Perhaps the boldest climbers climb things which are bold enough to feed the rat and they don't need to go any bolder. Perhaps some were doing it for peer recognition which may be more conditional now, or less effusive, so have toned it down or stopped. None of that is an implied criticism of bold climbing, which is something I greatly admire up to a point and have participated in in my own small way over the years.

There can be quite a lot criticism aimed at those that stick their necks out with “bold” routes or claims there of. It can follow you for decades, too:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTFD2RjDEAn/?utm_medium=copy_link

Sometimes people even leave the country after enough of it. So, unless you strongly crave the adulation of others, you’d probably keep a fairly low profile in the age of Social Media.
I was being snarky about Gresh, but it wasn’t really what I’d meant to say. I’d meant to critique the the concept of criticism of people making personal choices. Because someone choosing to take a risk, of any nature, is their own business; as long as they’re not putting the unwilling or unsuspecting at jeopardy in the process. If you want to drive at 150 mph on a busy motorway, you are a twat; if you wish to slackline across the Grand Canyon, blindfold and without harness or safety line, fine.

 

[cheque]

In reply to Cheque:
Yes, women’s trad standards have improved massively, it’s hard to gague if the same is true of mens. I forgot to mention Neil Dickson in my previous post who has pushed things a bit

Yeah I’ve no idea what’s newsworthy or what represents women’s or men’s standards or anything. I just remembered there was that post about an E7 yesterday and thought it seemed relevant to mention it.

 

[Teaboy]

EDIT: I also failed to appreciate how busy this thread would be! The below is a reply to Bonjoy

I obviously misrepresented my point of view. It's not a desire to see people push into more dangerous territory, I was lamenting that we don't seem to recognise the skills required to push on, on-sight, with the required level of circumspection (i.e. safety); a headpoint of an E9 gets the headlines, an on-sight of an E7 either doesn't or else they are not as frequent as you would expect given the explosion in people's physical skills. I'm not saying grades for OS trad should have gone up at the same rate but I'm wondering if they have gone backwards overall?

If anything I think headpointing (and the fetishization of E grades) have led to some people taking more risk. There are people who can barely OS E3 who have risked their ankles for an E7 they've been able to sketch up on a top rope. Climbing bold trad on-sight needn't be foolhardy and I don't think we've not reached a ceiling on trad because there are so few headpoint projects remaining, there are other avenues for trad climbing without people getting hurt.

 

[Teaboy]

I'm not sure its more of a reaction than starting a new thread on a below the line Insta comment

Is starting a new thread not the done thing? Clearly I don't really keep up, but I'm laid up in bed this week, and the way he'd put it made me curious if I've been missing something.

People can start threads on whatever they like, it just seemed to be turning into a bit of an unnecessary pile on.

 

[Bonjoy]

That aside my big grievance about the depiction of trad these days is the way it seems to be only focused on headpoint ascents. In the 'competition climbers going outdoors' thread Franco said something like trad climbing in the UK had reached a ceiling totally ignoring the fact that, apart from Caff, on-sight trad has been stagnant for years. Has anyone else moved on from Dawes on Hardback Thesaurus or Bransbury attempting Impact Day? I guess I could be out of the loop (again!) and things have moved on E7 and E8 on-sights have moved past being news worthy?

Surely sanity precludes the constant 'progress' your comment implies is desirable. I'd ask who this progress is desirable for? The audience (average climbers) or the participant? If the former, a community of generally not very bold people egging a few outliers into performing ever more dangerous acts for the entertainment of the group seems a bit off to me. If the latter, then surely it's wholly personal to the individual, and ascents don't need to be one step bolder than the boldest climb ever in order to be worthwhile. Even if boldness is directly proportional to a sense of reward, surely at some point the reward (however large) becomes not worth the price i.e. your very real chance of dying to put it bluntly. Perhaps the boldest climbers climb things which are bold enough to feed the rat and they don't need to go any bolder. Perhaps some were doing it for peer recognition which may be more conditional now, or less effusive, so have toned it down or stopped. None of that is an implied criticism of bold climbing, which is something I greatly admire up to a point and have participated in in my own small way over the years.

There can be quite a lot criticism aimed at those that stick their necks out with “bold” routes or claims there of. It can follow you for decades, too:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTFD2RjDEAn/?utm_medium=copy_link

Sometimes people even leave the country after enough of it. So, unless you strongly crave the adulation of others, you’d probably keep a fairly low profile in the age of Social Media.
I was being snarky about Gresh, but it wasn’t really what I’d meant to say. I’d meant to critique the the concept of criticism of people making personal choices. Because someone choosing to take a risk, of any nature, is their own business; as long as they’re not putting the unwilling or unsuspecting at jeopardy in the process. If you want to drive at 150 mph on a busy motorway, you are a twat; if you wish to slackline across the Grand Canyon, blindfold and without harness or safety line, fine.

Yes, I agree. There was a lot of that sort of thing when Honnold's film came out.

 

[teestub]

a headpoint of an E9 gets the headlines, an on-sight of an E7 either doesn't or else they are not as frequent as you would expect given the explosion in people's physical skills.

I think this is the slight disconnect here, yes elite climbers overall are a lot stronger and fitter now, but very few are focussed on hard trad climbing to any extent, and as such you’ve not seen the advances there that there have been in bouldering and sport.

If trad was still the mainstay of the elite and E grades had been pushed higher overall (if such a thing is even possible with our weird system), then I’m sure you would have seen a complimentary increase in the onsight level.

 

[36chambers]

A comment from Neil Gresham on Insta:

I've only just realised that this actually says Neil Gresham and not Niall Grimes!

Can you guys be more considerate when choosing names in the future please. Thank you.

 

[Teaboy]

I think this is the slight disconnect here, yes elite climbers overall are a lot stronger and fitter now, but very few are focussed on hard trad climbing to any extent, and as such you’ve not seen the advances there that there have been in bouldering and sport.

I know why they haven’t risen and I don’t want or expect anyone to do anything, I was just irked by the implication that trad was at a dead end because headpointing was at a dead end and I think it’s a shame that most now see cutting edge trad only in terms head pointing. It was no more than an old man shouts at clouds type comment.