The demonisation of bold trad

[andy moles]

A comment from Neil Gresham on Insta:

We are seeing the demonisation of bold trad climbing at present

Are we? My impression is that bold trad is not popular, and doesn't have the same cachet it once did compared to other types of climbing, but I can't say I've seen it 'demonised' in a way that would draw such an observation.

I posted a reply asking where he's coming from, but don't imagine I'll get a response - is this a view the cognoscenti of UKB would agree with, and if so where is it coming from?

 

[mrjonathanr]

Where does he say that? Can’t see the post.

 

[andy moles]

It's a comment on Dave MacLeod's latest post about If 6 Was 9.

 

[SA Chris]

Demonisation is a strong word. There maybe be a waning in popularity, but it comes and goes.

A lot of activity on Dubh Loch, Shelterstone & Sky Wall over the summer for example.

 

[mrjonathanr]

Odd. There’s no context for that. The British climbing public generally reveres bold trad climbing. Look at the near deification of Johnny, for example.

 

[Bonjoy]

I wouldn't say there was a movement to demonise bold trad, but I have noticed a general shift among climbers towards critiquing bold trad ascents rather than unquestioningly applauding. Up to a point I view this as a good thing, but only up to a point. It would be sad if bold trad became viewed as the preserve of the reckless/nihilistic/stupid.

 

[Wellsy]

I don't think it's demonised at all. I do think it is dying off in popularity though. But then was it ever really that popular?

 

[andy popp]

But then was it ever really that popular?

Yes. Bold trad was pretty much the only form of climbing for the first 100 years of the sport's history.

 

[SA Chris]

Even since the advent of alternative climbing forms, its popularity has waxed and waned.

 

[teestub]

I wouldn't say there was a movement to demonise bold trad, but I have noticed a general shift among climbers towards critiquing bold trad ascents rather than unquestioningly applauding. Up to a point I view this as a good thing, but only up to a point. It would be sad if bold trad became viewed as the preserve of the reckless/nihilistic/stupid.

I guess maybe there’s more of a public forum for the critique these days? I would assume that back in the day there would still be quite robust criticism over a pint of someone who’s ascent was viewed as reckless rather calculated, but would be interesting to hear how it was pre internet peanut gallery!

 

[SA Chris]

Internet peanut gallery is at least 20 years old now?

 

[andy moles]

Sounds so far like not much to see here. Maybe the Gresh is just being melodramatic on the back of a couple of Youtube comments.

 

[SA Chris]

You'd swear the way he goes on he was seeking attention.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

Sounds so far like not much to see here. Maybe the Gresh is just being melodramatic on the back of a couple of Youtube comments.

Surely not!

Isn’t he some sort of omnipotent climbing demi-god and divine arbiter?

Pretty sure that’s what he said he is, so he must be.

Anyway, bold trad has always attracted a proportionately similar degree of criticism as soloing and a similarly small set of participants. To me it’s always been an exercise in stating the obvious, essentially boiling down to “He/She is gonna get killed/hurt, if they fall”. To which the only reasonable response is “no shit, Sherlock. In other news, the sun will set on the equator tonight and there will be a period of relative darkness before dawn tomorrow”; or similar.

 

[andy moles]

Well I thought I'd run it by committee before casting such aspersions.

Demonisation promised a good read.

 

[andy popp]

Anyway, bold trad has always attracted a proportionately similar degree of criticism as soloing

I'm far too out of touch to have any real clue about current attitudes, but I remember reading something in the last couple of years, I think on a UKC thread, that was disapproving of soloing in a way that I'd never seen before: basically that it had no legitimate place in the roster of climbing types and shouldn't be practiced. The post was really censorious. When I started (jumpers for goalposts etc.) it was pretty much an integral part of climbing, something many/most climbers did in some form or another. I think I first soloed something - a Severe on the Sea Walls at Avon - on my third day out.

 

[jwi]

I read "The demonetisation of bold trad".

Anyway, has there been a bolder ascent than the free solo of El Cap? The monetisation of that maybe did not work as well as we think, considering that Honnhold has become a care salesman.

 

[danm]

I think there will always be some facet of climbing which is attractive to some and repulsive to others. In the old days when every climb could kill there were climbs which were considered "unjustifiable" and it was considered good form not to record them. There were arguments then and there probably still will be in the future whatever the safety landscape looks like.

What about the demonisation of climbing in general as an extreme sport? I'm curious about how those with kids getting into climbing see the participation statement these days? No such thing exists for football, rugby and other sports (or getting on the school bus) and yet the risks are not dissimilar.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

I think there will always be some facet of climbing which is attractive to some and repulsive to others. In the old days when every climb could kill there were climbs which were considered "unjustifiable" and it was considered good form not to record them. There were arguments then and there probably still will be in the future whatever the safety landscape looks like.

What about the demonisation of climbing in general as an extreme sport? I'm curious about how those with kids getting into climbing see the participation statement these days? No such thing exists for football, rugby and other sports (or getting on the school bus) and yet the risks are not dissimilar.

Life is risk.

 

[cheque]

I’m sure in Gresham’s world of training kids, coaching rich Londoners towards redpointing Raindogs and writing articles about fingerboarding and how great the Olympics is for “our sport”, bold trad feels demonised, but in my world of going trad climbing at least twice a week and not having been to the wall since before the first lockdown it’s as cool as it’s ever been .

Seriously though, the comment’s probably at least partly inspired by all the stick Franco (the Jack Grealish of British climbing) has got over the years and possibly also the sort of “get down from there” comments that Anna Taylor attracts. If you look back all the bold trad firebrands like Dawes, Woodward, Dixon, Dunne etc. who’ve come to be deiefied started out being slagged from all corners for supposedly lying, not giving stuff the right grade, being too bold, not being bold enough etc. first. It just kind of comes with the punk rock world of doing necky trad routes I guess.

In terms of whether it’s getting done much, high-profile bold trad mainly gets done by people who’ve yet to get too old/ responsible/ wise/ injured to rein it in a bit (as Andy says, bold trad was the only type of climbing for a century- a period during which it was normal to quit altogether when you got married) so if young people are more into the training/ coaches/ bouldering/ comps/ sport side of things than the trad/ fellwalking/ bivying/ wearing a fleece with all sheep shit trampled into it one then bold trad is going to be happening less and less, demonisation or not.

As far as the Internet peanut gallery goes, it’s hardly a new thing but the general “climbing community” demographic over the last few years has definitely changed over the last few years or so to include a lot of people who’ve got into climbing from taking their kids to the wall. If there’s anyone who has an interest in demonising the climbing of E7 6bs it’s them and I guess they now form part of the peanut gallery too. As I said in the first paragraph Gresh is more of an expert on that part of the world than me.