squiffy half crimping

[stone]

On the video with Alison Vest's legendary feat of finger-boarding she says that she holds the edge with her fingers twisted so rather than just being her finger tips, it's across the side of her fingers. At 14:10 in this video she shows the pattern on the chalk on her hand to demonstrate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLAQb38DhMY&t=851s .

I wonder whether she uses that sort of twisted grip when climbing too? Do other people?

I know it's just a strength feat here but I'd imagine that if finger-boarding for climbing, it would be best to use a grip that translated well to what was used when climbing. But perhaps consciously changing to that weird grip both finger-boarding and climbing might unlock something for some people???

 

[jwi]

Yes, strength is specific.

Some of the implications for climbing became more abundandly clear to me when I started to notice that some climbers are only strong in their regular climbing gym but not in other gyms. They have specific adaptions to a certain fixed set of holds. (I think it is more this than due to setting style, as where I lived before most setters where independent and set for most gyms).

Some younger (relative to me) climbers told me that they have favourite hold-brands on which they usually climb higher grades/more difficult colour circuits on.

 

[stone]

But Alison is holding a very generic "hold" (ie a flat edge) in a very very weird way.

 

[jwi]

Yes so most of the strength gains, after noobie gains, will be specific to that exact finger position and time under load.

 

[Wellsy]

Well the counter argument would be that whatever allows for her to load the most weight and thus provide the most stimulus will provoke the most adaptation

There's a reason why Rugby players do loads of squats with good form even though they don't exactly squat on the field. Sports science is pretty clear on this; 1-1 replication of the exact position in play is often not the most efficient strength training principle

 

[Wellsy]

Actually a better analogy might be that this feels to me along the lines of "you shouldn't squat in weightlifting shoes and a belt because your sport doesn't use those" which any sport scientist will tell you is nonsense, you should use both, they'll let you load more weight and be stronger as a result.

 

[jwi]

Don't worry, I would never neither squat nor do deadlifts.

 

[stone]

I was thinking more that perhaps trying a bit of finger-boarding weirdly twisted like that might mean that next time I came to a flat edge I might be able to miraculously recover/levitate with it ;D

I'm guessing she needed to strengthen a bunch of ligaments etc before it worked so well.

 

[spidermonkey09]

A lot of strength training for other sports is quite generic though. Doing squats trains big muscle groups and rugby players do also spent considerable periods of time on eg scrum machines to train the specific strength they need as well.

Its plausible that in climbing because holds are so variable, the specificity of training one grip type might mean that it doesn't necessarily translate well to outside/ any other climbing where that grip type is not used. Perhaps its more specific than other sports.

Obviously its not a holy grail of training to fingerboard like this though.

 

[stone]

Obviously its not a holy grail of training to fingerboard like this though.

The fact that I'd never heard of it made me think that too. But I was fishing for whether anyone else other than Alison Vest has tried it and what the outcome was. Also whether anyone knew whether Alison Vest actually holds rock that way too.

 

[stone]

I suppose I was wondering whether it might be analogous to how gymnasts apparently use a false grip when doing pull ups eg on rings. They get comfortable and strong with that grip. That then means they can incorporate it into the difficult stuff they do, where it is necessary. I've never done any gymnastics and I'm basing this off something someone at work was telling me, but its backed up by googling eg https://kensuifitness.com/blogs/news/false-grip

 

[Paul B]

Whilst remembering an Iron Cross with a false grip scores zero?

 

[stone]

Whilst remembering an Iron Cross with a false grip scores zero?

Climbs with Alison Vest twisted fingers don't though ;D

 

[Wellsy]

A lot of strength training for other sports is quite generic though. Doing squats trains big muscle groups and rugby players do also spent considerable periods of time on eg scrum machines to train the specific strength they need as well.

Its plausible that in climbing because holds are so variable, the specificity of training one grip type might mean that it doesn't necessarily translate well to outside/ any other climbing where that grip type is not used. Perhaps its more specific than other sports.

Obviously its not a holy grail of training to fingerboard like this though.

I would say its quite common for sports to say "we're not like other sports, we are different!" but in reality the principles of S&C come from biology. I'm not saying that Alison Vest is or isn't doing the best thing, I think it's fair to say we don't have sufficient science on finger strength training for real knowledge

But what I would say is that if you are able to, with consistent form, that does not provoke injury and does target the appropriate area, increase load through an adjustment of the finger position, then that could have a positive impact.

I know that there's an idea that just training on a 20mm edge just teaches you how to get stronger on a 20mm edge. I'd say that's not true. Fingerboard hangs make your fingers stronger across a lot of hold types.

Anyway clearly hanging that way is not giving her issues

 

[Wellsy]

Don't worry, I would never neither squat nor do deadlifts.

Which is entirely irrelevant to my point

 

[teestub]

As one might expect from a very decent climber, she uses a range of grip types on rock from open to to full crimp

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3UPB6VZiBf8&pp=ygUMYWxsaXNvbiB2ZXN0

Plenty of vids on YouTube Stone if you want to see if you can identify the twisted fingers!

 

[Fultonius]

I'm gonna call it, she's basically cheating the test and making a 20mm edge more like a 28.28mm edge (assuming 45 degrees).

Of course, if you can find a hold that allows you to do this outdoors, and have practiced the movement you might be able to do the same.

Crack on and report back.

 

[Fultonius]

A lot of strength training for other sports is quite generic though. Doing squats trains big muscle groups and rugby players do also spent considerable periods of time on eg scrum machines to train the specific strength they need as well.

Its plausible that in climbing because holds are so variable, the specificity of training one grip type might mean that it doesn't necessarily translate well to outside/ any other climbing where that grip type is not used. Perhaps its more specific than other sports.

Obviously its not a holy grail of training to fingerboard like this though.

I would say its quite common for sports to say "we're not like other sports, we are different!" but in reality the principles of S&C come from biology. I'm not saying that Alison Vest is or isn't doing the best thing, I think it's fair to say we don't have sufficient science on finger strength training for real knowledge

But what I would say is that if you are able to, with consistent form, that does not provoke injury and does target the appropriate area, increase load through an adjustment of the finger position, then that could have a positive impact.

I know that there's an idea that just training on a 20mm edge just teaches you how to get stronger on a 20mm edge. I'd say that's not true. Fingerboard hangs make your fingers stronger across a lot of hold types.

Anyway clearly hanging that way is not giving her issues

Wellsy, I see what you're saying about basic training gains giving you a foundation for more more sport specifc gains, but there are many, many examples, papers, studies etc. that all point to the same thing - finger strength gains on a 20mm edge *without lots of movement practice and learning how to apply that to rock, results in poor gains in terms of grades and ability*

 

[Wellsy]

Absolutely it's a technical sport! I would say that's true, that's my own personal experience, in the same way that being strong at squatting doesn't make you good at Rugby or Judo or whatever. But there's a reason why Rugby players and Judokas squat, and there's a reason why climbers hang from little edges, cos it gets your fingers strong. It's just that having strong fingers is not the only thing you need.

 

[thunderbeest]

But what I would say is that if you are able to, with consistent form, that does not provoke injury and does target the appropriate area, increase load through an adjustment of the finger position, then that could have a positive impact.

Hmm, but if it's a bit like Fultonius says, that she gets more mm out of the edge does it work then? Then we could be training on 40mm edges with more load instead of 20 or 10? I'd expect these factors to be quite important as well, not only load?