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northern yob said:
I think a decent compromise is us following the very simple rules already in place as asked for by the land owner(who has every right to tell us to fuck off)! What is it with us as a group..? And our sense of entitlement and inability to follow simple rules, access is only going to become more of an issue, if we can’t do better, we deserve everything we get…

To be clear, I agree that leaving a fixed line up the HS isn't on and I can see why it was chopped, and I don't think the owner of the rope has anything to complain about. But I can't see a problem with trying to engage with the landowner to help ensure that this doesn't happen again and future proof the agreement a bit. Its a sporty E7/8 on an iconic bit of rock, its not going to become less popular.
 
It will become less popular if it gets banned….. we’ve engaged with the landowner and have an existing agreement which allows us access, I’m not against open channels and pushing for more, but maybe after being busted for ignoring the previous agreement isn’t the best time, and doesn’t put us in the best position to be negotiating….
 
Is there a record for the area then of fixed/insitu gear that has been agreed? And do we know if any of the fixed gear in discussion was ever agreed anyway. There are a couple of very old pegs at the top (top in a sporty sense, end of the clean overhanging rock, where it transitions into a chossy easier angled groove) of EOTT. These are where the bolt was that I saw chopped . The bolt backed up the pegs which are now pretty poor. I think one has no eye and the other was shit.
On a separate but semi-related topic, has EOTT had many on sights? Steve? Jacopo?
 
spidermonkey09 said:
Its pretty clearly not an adventurous location. Its an extremely busy walking and picnic area as you say, with dogs, prams, selfie sticks etc, at most 15/20 mins from the parking (haven't been in ages so might be wrong). I think some limited fixed gear up the back and a bolt belay to facilitate the route being worked with minimal faff is a decent compromise.
Doesn't the fact that it is a pinnacle with no bolt ladder up it make it a rare adventurous location? The fact that it is possible to get to without a hike/float-plane/rabies-jab/whatever makes it all the more precious doesn't it?

To me, trad climbing charm is dependent on not being a contrived avoidance of easier options. That's reflected in the stars routes get awarded too isn't it?

Replacing bad abseil pegs with stainless bolts makes perfect sense though. Can't any top-rope rig-up be backed up to such an abseil point?
 
Ethics aside, gear precedents don't matter here. The BMC access team have a good idea what is in place and what would be problematic. Contact us! This area has every conservation designation under the sun, which means any work carried out needs prior approval from Natural England. The landowner has to do this for all sorts of work, they therefore cannot allow, or even turn a blind eye to, the use of power drills as climbers see fit. As noted above, this is not to say it won't be allowed - if it is agreed first and the rationale is clear it often will be. But unauthorised drilling will be viewed very dimly indeed.

These requirements exist elsewhere, and climbers have often got away with ignoring them. But that isn't a trend that is going to continue, and this is one location where it absolutely can't. As I said above, look at what has happening in the US. Broadly, climbing activity is generally fine with most conservation landowners. But bolt placement generally isn't, and often they have a legal requirement to manage it. If we can't show that we can behave by the rules, the rules will be both tightened and enforced.
 
Ed booth said:
Is there a record for the area then of fixed/insitu gear that has been agreed? And do we know if any of the fixed gear in discussion was ever agreed anyway. There are a couple of very old pegs at the top (top in a sporty sense, end of the clean overhanging rock, where it transitions into a chossy easier angled groove) of EOTT. These are where the bolt was that I saw chopped . The bolt backed up the pegs which are now pretty poor. I think one has no eye and the other was shit.
On a separate but semi-related topic, has EOTT had many on sights? Steve? Jacopo?
To my knowledge (and this agreement pre-dates my time in this role) the only request that has been made to install fixed gear has been an after the fact request (by me)to retain bolts on the line which they had complained about us not seeking permission to bolt. Understandably they refused to allow these to stay. This was also because they were very visible from the main path. Beyond that no developers have chosen to ask either directly or via the BMC before bolting, so no other requests have been put in. Some bolts (not many) have slipped in under the radar over the period of the agreement, which suggests the owner doesn't have a comprehensive log of fixed gear and/or doesn't check it regularly. I think it would show bad faith on the part of climbers to use this as rationale to keep pushing until we receive another complaint though.
If climbers collectively decide that something other than the historical collection of fixed gear is desirable it could be requested as an update to existing access arrangements. Up to a point landowners are in favour of well maintained safety equipment, if it has low visible impact and doesn't pose a risk to the general public.
 
Cross posted with JB. I'd go along with everything he's said there.
Taking advantage of a precedent of getting away with something in the past is not a great strategy in this instance.
 
spidermonkey09 said:
SamT said:
adventure trad climbing......hugely popular tourist beauty spot and picnic area.

I suspect this is part of the issue. Its pretty clearly not an adventurous location. Its an extremely busy walking and picnic area as you say, with dogs, prams, selfie sticks etc, at most 15/20 mins from the parking

As per Stones comment.. isn't that the beauty of it all though.. You can go and have a full on trad adventure, climb E9 etc, if you can, all within 50 ft of the normaltons posing for instagram.

As Stone says, its very precious and it seems that access is now very precarious because a few folks can't abide by some relatively reasonable requests by the land owner that don't really inconvenience the climbing community at all.
 
northern yob said:
I think a decent compromise is us following the very simple rules already in place as asked for by the land owner(who has every right to tell us to fuck off)! What is it with us as a group..? And our sense of entitlement and inability to follow simple rules, access is only going to become more of an issue, if we can’t do better, we deserve everything we get…

This, and arguments similar to this, are commonly heard in cases like this. To be clear I'm not in favour of antagonising those with a legal right to make life difficult for climbers. And I am in favour of access agreements where time and circumstance have arrived at this formal approach being the way to preserve climbing access - and this example seems like a place where not risking rocking the boat is the most sensible approach. (and request a few discreet very low profile 12mm glue-in clippy-stick access bolts to tidy up the pinnacle, preserve vegetation(?), and 'replace unsightly old fixed gear'...)

But be honest about the wider scene rather than make-believe. It's rarely as simple as: 'lets follow the rules'. We can pretend that climbing takes place according to landowners' rules if that's what suits our argument at the time, but climbing doesn't happen like that in reality.

If you truly believe in a fairytale of 'we only do what the landowner has explicitly permitted following a formal request' then don't ever climb on the slate, and strip the Diamond access route tomorrow. Then relax in a warm glow of knowing you're righteously following the landowners' rules (oh what you really think Mostyn Estates want to know about and agree to a via ferrata on their land?!). Loads of other places where we just go and climb and place all sorts of fixed stuff without seeking explicit permission.. and hope it turns out ok.

No coincidence that two people making a case against bolts here are JB and NY. JB lives in that far-off unsullied fantasy land known as The Unspoiled Trad Environment. I think NY probably often visits there on holiday :).
 
petejh said:
JB lives in that far-off unsullied fantasy land known as The Unspoiled Trad Environment. I think NY probably often visits there on holiday :).
Pete has something happened? I don’t like that you’re moving in on my turf of being the antagonistic “knob” [thanks to various punters for that one] on UKB, albeit one that spouts bullsh1t in an (even more) self-righteous fashion.

Aside from your fantastical aside, you seem to think you have much more knowledge of the situation in the Peak than is reality as is apparent from your comments.

It’s fairly obvious that NY’s “decent compromise” comments were a riposte to spidermonkey09’s, frankly ignorant, suggestion.
 
Steady on Tony; think you'll find it was JB that actually initially said that might be a compromise solution in post #26!
 
Ed booth said:
There are a couple of very old pegs at the top (top in a sporty sense, end of the clean overhanging rock, where it transitions into a chossy easier angled groove) of EOTT. These are where the bolt was that I saw chopped . The bolt backed up the pegs which are now pretty poor. I think one has no eye and the other was shit.
This is nonsense. Here’s a tip: do not use these pegs (they’re probably ~50 years old). There are a couple of small wires in that area in good rock, use these (backed up to the perfectly good gear at the top) if you wanna top rope.

Ed booth said:
On a separate but semi-related topic, has EOTT had many on sights? Steve? Jacopo?
A more pertinent question is how many have tried these routes ground-up? It is 1 of about 3 E7s to reasonably ground up in the Peak District. It is 1 of 2 that could be done without any change in grade entirely without any in situ gear. There is no need for any in situ gear on any of the routes on that buttress. That is the most remarkable thing about those routes: hard but completely protectable climbing.
 
spidermonkey09 said:
think you'll find it was JB that actually initially said that might be a compromise solution in post #26!

No, it was posited as an (potentially unpalatable) option by Jonboy, you suggested it was a good idea.
 
[quote author=Tony
This is nonsense. Here’s a tip: do not use these pegs (they’re probably ~50 years old). There are a couple of small wires in that area in good rock, use these (backed up to the perfectly good gear at the top) if you wanna top rope.
[/quote]
What is nonsense?
We must have a different assessment of good runners. The couple of small wires you mention didn’t jump out at me. I was lowered in by my partner and hung around looking to make a natural belay there and didn’t see much that inspired any confidence.
Similarly the gear on the top that you previously described as more than adequate , is in my opinion, not brilliant. Loads of heavily weathered cracks of exfoliating limestone.
I can see that you won’t agree with me so maybe this is a futile debate.
 
To quote some writer on the matter of subtle beauty in nature - 'Greatness exists in the overlooked and inconspicuous details' or alternatively, why not turn the crag into the usual wankfest
 
Ed booth said:
What is nonsense?
Specifically:
Ed booth said:
The bolt backed up the pegs
I doubt anyone (sane) has used those pegs for more than 20 years. The placement of that bolt was nothing to do with backing up those ancient pegs. Hence what you wrote was nonsense.

Ed booth said:
I was lowered in by my partner … the gear on the top is in my opinion not brilliant. exfoliating limestone.
Err, so you’re clearly known for making well-informed and rational decisions then?! (Or you’re writing nonsense…)
 
spidermonkey09 said:
Yep, I still think that. Call me ignorant all you want. :wank:
Whilst you write things like the above, I think you do that pretty well for yourself. Cheers.
 
It's funny that Tony is such a cunt on here, if he's who I think he is in real life he's perfectly nice :lol:
 
He does seem to like chucking out insults rather than simply making a point. Nails (he of the Grand Delusion).
 

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