Recovery, Sleep and getting older

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I'm enjoying this thread. I'm 44 with two young kids (5, 8 ) and more or less do all the things advised against here, and as a result don't climb that hard, and don't recover that well... By the time I've done my day's work, got the kids to bed, had dinner, caught up on any work I missed due to taking the kids to after-school clubs etc, I'm often not training until after 10, sometimes 11pm.

That said, I generally get out climbing in the middle of the day (and subsequently work until late at night to catch up the hours), so I can't complain about that.
My key takeaway from this is to prioritise sleep, which is something I've always struggled to do. There's so much info out there that it's the easiest 'win', a super-power, etc, but I just find it so hard to get to bed early.

Or, that I should retire, which definitely appeals.
 
Is this the time to mention once you get in to your late 50’s no matter how long you’ve slept for. It feels like that you haven’t acutely been to sleep at all.
Just prey your prostrate holds out. :lol:
 
I still say, sleep quality is affected negatively by (among other things inc stress obvs) decreasing testosterone in men as we age. Lots of evidence out there that managing T is fundamental to good health inc. good sleep. Just saying 'get more/better quality sleep' is a bit like saying 'get stronger'. How? Your body won't just give you more/better quality sleep - there actually is some biochemistry involved as well. Good intentions and sensible bedtimes will help of course. If you're looking at sleep/recovery in context of ageing then a lot of the stuff you're up against is linked to declining (or increasing) levels of hormones etc. Slowing this decline are lifestyle factors (working out especially in particular patterns and times related to fasting, not overloading, lowering stress) and dietary intake. Dietary is easily (and cheaply, compared to steak and fish etc) fortified with a few common and safe vits and minerals taken at RDA. Zinc and b-vits being the obvious, lacking in many western diets.

Admittedly I'm a numbers person and like it when something can be shown to be low or high and something done to increase or reduce, helping contribute to conditions that lead to a desired outcome.


Mindfullness, yoga etc, All end up working by acting on the levels of various chemicals in the brain/body.
 
DavidM said:
Thats interesting post Probes and similar to mine apart from waking / sleep timing. I regularly stretch for 45 mins as well that helps. Roll out the back and glutes daily etc which really helps lower back.

-Are you just bouldering or route climbing as well?
-The power nap do you fall asleep or just resting before the board session?
-The board endurance training schedule you mention- 2/3 days on and then 4 off. Is this endurance for bouldering or for route climbing. If bouldering what endurance exercises do you prefer or found successful? Do you have 4 days complete rest in this cycle?

- What does a boulders de-load week look like in practice.? Is it same intensity but halving the amounts of sessions? Or do you dial back both.?

thanks petejh I thought I would be covered with a decent clean diet including enough meat and shellfish to cover the zinc requirements. Will consider and try that.

-Are you just bouldering or route climbing as well?
Atm I'm just bouldering, but always with routes in the back of my mind. Life/time has just dictated that. I also have an ongoing saga of a Longridge traverse project, that I put effort into every year, so I try to keep a level where if and when I'm on it, I can get back up to speed endurance wise in a couple of months.
-The power nap do you fall asleep or just resting before the board session? Flat out snooring my head off, much to the annoyance of partner. There's usually True & the Rainbow Kingdom blarring on tele and some sort of super hero fight going on on the other settee.
-The board endurance training schedule you mention- 2/3 days on and then 4 off. Is this endurance for bouldering or for route climbing. If bouldering what endurance exercises do you prefer or found successful? Do you have 4 days complete rest in this cycle?
Its short period power endurance ( an cap? or whatever they call it these days :) ) 20-30 moves 1-2mins on. 4 times the rest. Aim for 6 to 8 of these, and I should be failing on the last couple if I've gauged it right. I do occasionally do switch to longer endurance (4+mins) but my board is a 50 and it ends up just jug hauling. I also have longridge 5 mins away so do that there. Yeah I usually do take about 4 off after a few days of this, unless I feel an easy session is ok or I just need to get on the board. It doesn't do my max finger strength much good but for all round fitness/strength I find it invaluable.

- What does a boulders de-load week look like in practice.? Is it same intensity but halving the amounts of sessions? Or do you dial back both.? How do you mean here? A resting/easy week?

In terms of bouldering and strength, if that's what I'm on with.. the one thing I've become far more aware of is gauging how you feel on the warm up, and this dictates what Ill do in the session. The plan is go for max but if I'm not for pulling really hard and don't feel fresh enough too, Ill switch straight to some strength type problems and exercises. That way I know I can get an hour of something decent in, rather than flailing around for an hour, realising I'm not 100% and wasting the session. Nothing too wrong with this I think, as I used to have loads of sessions where you got no-where but at same time you were learning moves and positions etc. for the next session. But I haven't the time now for this.


Regarding the zinc suppliments, I was recommended to take these (can't remember if it was a doc or family) as I lost my dad to prostrate cancer about 6 year ago. After a bit of research there seemed big pluses for it but then I found research where if you're too high it increases the risk. I've not gone any further with it. Re-looking at the research against, it seems most of these were american studies, and the subjects were popping them like smarties and no doubt popping steaks at the same rate. So no surprise they had high levels. Around 120mgs a day intake.
 
I tend to agree I always try to prioritise sleep and take myself to bed early despite lack of free time with the kids in the evening. Helps the mrs is exhausted as well early evening so I don't mind winding down early and getting up early.

kac said:
For me changing to training at lunchtime has made the biggest change as any evening training seems to totally ruin my sleep. If it is at all possible I would give it a try.

Unfortunately this isn't a solution well maybe. I do have a home board and work within 8 mins bike from my home so potentially I could fit some training in my 1 hour lunch. I have in the past put a fingerboard and pull up session in that 40mins when I haven't had chance to climb but a board session might be a struggle and hasty and lack quality. At the weekends I train at lunch and feel my sleep /recover is somewhat is improved compared to early evening sessions.

I am not looking to recreate the deep blissful sleep pre kids or in my teens I know this isn't attainable and sleep quality is always going to degrade over time so I accept that. To this end I actually never had a problem with sleep or getting to sleep even in the midst of stressful times in my life. Some great takeaways from everyone thanks.
 
If you're getting up multiple times a night to piss (or even once) then you might actually be drinking too much water too late at night and screwing up your sleep cycle. Some good info here
https://www.risescience.com/blog/drinking-water-before-bed
 
Dexter said:
If you're getting up multiple times a night to piss (or even once) then you might actually be drinking too much water too late at night and screwing up your sleep cycle. Some good info here
https://www.risescience.com/blog/drinking-water-before-bed

Interesting. I have actually found upping the hydration considerably in and after my evening sessions has helped lower my body temperature and sleep quality throughout the night but couple of pisses during the night as a result but way less irritable. I might try cutting back entirely after 8pm as the link suggests. I'm acutely aware about eating late impacts sleep also but it I enjoy eating later and having yoghurt with fruit after diner as a treat as I don't eat deserts biscuits etc or sweet items at all.
 
Same story here as everyone else, 40s, two kids, full time job etc.

Train on own board 2-4 times a week, warm up on board, climb for maybe 90 mins between 8.45 pm to 10.15.

30 mins weighted pull ups once a week.

Cycle to work twice a week.

Only had my own board for the past 18 months but feel stronger now than in the past.

Two specific thoughts:
Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?
Surely climbing on a board should train your fingers and core pretty well unless you are operating at a very high level.

Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?
If the non climbing training is not specifically to rehab an injury might it be worth trialling sacking off the rings etc.
I have been generally fitter in the past but felt little benefit in my climbing.

A general question:
Why does everyone love drinking water so much?
Surely drinking to thirst is adequate for a healthy person.
 
tim palmer said:
Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?

Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?

Bit of context

-I only have a small 7.5ft high by 9ft wide @45 degree board so not a huge amount of upward movement.
-I use the 30-40mins finger boarding and pulls as part of warm up before hitting the board.
-I exclusively used the board for 6-8months and fingers felt tweaky and I got a pulley injury. Sometimes too psyched and not warming up fully maybe. I feel the progressive hangs from the floor warms the fingers up nicely, trains them and keeps them healthy. The weighted pull ups /chin ups offsets the lack of pulling upwards on the board due to space restraints.
- Rings work and end of session is mainly antagonist stuff to keep balanced and injury prevention in shoulder and forearm extensor. Dips, Y's or T's and reverse curls with dumbbell.
- Limited core training incorporated.

What would you consider dropping.?
 
DavidM said:
tim palmer said:
Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?

Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?

Totally plausible

Bit of context

-I only have a small 7.5ft high by 9ft wide @45 degree board so not a huge amount of upward movement.
-I use the 30-40mins finger boarding and pulls as part of warm up before hitting the board.
-I exclusively used the board for 6-8months and fingers felt tweaky and I got a pulley injury. Sometimes too psyched and not warming up fully maybe. I feel the progressive hangs from the floor warms the fingers up nicely, trains them and keeps them healthy. The weighted pull ups /chin ups offsets the lack of pulling upwards on the board due to space restraints.
- Rings work and end of session is mainly antagonist stuff to keep balanced and injury prevention in shoulder and forearm extensor. Dips, Y's or T's and reverse curls with dumbbell.
- Limited core training incorporated.

What would you consider dropping.?
 
DavidM said:
tim palmer said:
Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?

Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?

Bit of context

-I only have a small 7.5ft high by 9ft wide @45 degree board so not a huge amount of upward movement.
-I use the 30-40mins finger boarding and pulls as part of warm up before hitting the board.
-I exclusively used the board for 6-8months and fingers felt tweaky and I got a pulley injury. Sometimes too psyched and not warming up fully maybe. I feel the progressive hangs from the floor warms the fingers up nicely, trains them and keeps them healthy. The weighted pull ups /chin ups offsets the lack of pulling upwards on the board due to space restraints.
- Rings work and end of session is mainly antagonist stuff to keep balanced and injury prevention in shoulder and forearm extensor. Dips, Y's or T's and reverse curls with dumbbell.
- Limited core training incorporated.

What would you consider dropping.?

Opening this one to the board...but is 45 mins of warming up not really excessive?

As part of a lattice assessment I did a couple of years back, the coach commented that my warm up was all wrong for doing limit sessions (which I presume your board session is). I was gradually working my way through varying difficulty of problems. 10 - 15 from easy to moderate, finishing on some closer to my limit.

He reckoned I should warm up the same way I do for max hangs at home. 15-20 mins of progressively heavier but very short hangs, finished off with some explosive pulls and Tyler Nelson escque recruitment pulls. Typically I do:

Jump start pulls ups, dropping off (i.e. only upward pull, but assisted with some momentum). maybe 5 x 2

Some press ups and shoulder mobility

5 second hangs on big edge with feet on floor, maybe 5 secs on, 10-15 off. Do about 5 of those.

same with feet off floor

Then steadily ramp up by dropping edge size. As the difficulty goes up, the rest does too. My last hangs will be near max with at least a minute in between. Then it's one or two medium problems to get some coordination and core, then get on projects.

Changing to this warm up instantly got me up a few problems that I was struggling to do in parts

Should be noted that I'm not operating in the upper bouldering grades, more like Font 7A-7B on a good day - focus is always more sport (7c/8a) and trad.

Could too much volume in the warm up just be adding to the overall load?

Also, stretching, don't forget that vigorous stretching of any of the main climbing muscles on rest days *is* work. You can add quite a bit of load in a stretch and it might not be aiding recovery? (this last bit is a pet theory of mine - would love to see some SCIENCE to back up / refute but don't have the time right now - all I know if that too vigorous stretching has definitely slowed recovery from slight strains for me in the past, specially flexor unit strains. In fact, I used to stretch forearms loads and get loads of flexor unit strains, now I rarely stretch (deffo should do a bit more) and never get the strains. Haven't had one in years - used to get them multiple times a year) n=1
 
I often have trouble sleeping because my wife likes to be much hotter in bed than me. We've always had winter and summer weight duvets, but last autumn when the summer one was getting to cold for her, I put the winter one on the bed for her and left me with the summer weight one. She was plenty cosy enough that I could even keep the window open for more fresh air which I've also founds improves recovery.

Worth bearing in mind also that a raised body temperature at night is a sign of your body working really hard to repair itself, the answer might just be to cut some of the intensity/volume from your training.

Also +1 on the cutting down the water intake before bed, I don't drink anything at all after 6pm(dinner). and have noticed I stay asleeo longer,
 
Ballsofcottonwool said:
I often have trouble sleeping because my wife likes to be much hotter in bed than me. We've always had winter and summer weight duvets, but last autumn when the summer one was getting to cold for her, I put the winter one on the bed for her and left me with the summer weight one.

Good shout. After having kids and the whole sleep question is a topic of conversation the Mrs convinced me to buy a dual all silk duvet and pillow which I felt was ridiculously expensive at the time (£250 duvet & £70 pillow) but soon eat my hat because it was best purchase ever considering you spend half your life in bed. I get super hot at night compared to her and this allow all the heat to disperse and instantly better nights sleep. Normal synthetic duvet and pillows are now intolerable.
 
Could too much volume in the warm up just be adding to the overall load?

[/quote]

To clarify the warm up / strength sets...

Bike from work 8 mins then couple quick pull ups to get going

No hangs portable block from floor

3 lifts - half crimp
5 seconds on 3 seconds off @ 14mm edge

First set @ 33kg
Second set @ 37kg
Third set @ 42kg
Fourth set @ 46kg
Fifth set @ 46kg

4 mins rest between hangs

(Weighted pull ups during the 4 mins)

2-3 reps
First set @ 27kg
Second set @ 29kg
Third set @ 32kg
Fourth set @ 32kg

Grip 2 - back 2
5 seconds on 3 seconds off @ 14mm edge
First set @ 17kg
Second set @19kg
Third set @ 20kg
Fourth set @22kg

4 mins rest between hangs

(Weighted chin ups during the 4 mins)
2-3 reps
First set @ 27kg
Second set @ 29kg
Third set @ 32kg
Fourth set @ 32kg

Sometimes I only do one grip and it takes 25 mins and drop the chin ups. Sometimes two grips and chins ups take 45 min.

Then warm up the legs and hit the board. 1 easy warm up problem and then 2-3 medium hard problems then straight into the limit / project stuff

Thinking to get strength stuff in while fresh and build in an efficient warm up. Maybe all wrong.
 
The only times in my life when I’ve regularly needed to get out of bed in the night for a piss have been during periods of stress. Obviously everyone’s different but I think it’s more a symptom of sleeping lightly than of how much you’ve drunk.
 
Seems like a heck of a lot of "warm up" but I dunno everyone is different, maybe something to toy with though. If you don't mind a crass question how hard are you climbing?

Do you need to do all of the antagonists in the same session?
 
Dexter said:
If you're getting up multiple times a night to piss (or even once) then you might actually be drinking too much water too late at night and screwing up your sleep cycle. Some good info here
https://www.risescience.com/blog/drinking-water-before-bed

You might also be getting older and producing less Anti-Diuretic Hormone.
 
Its not a warm up per say just a way to get some strength work in whilst fresh and get warm simultaneously.

Hard to say what I’m climbing as I’ve only been training for a bit as I’ve had a second child recently but around 7a-7b so not hard at all. Not had much opportunity to get outdoors or at the wall at moment hence training volume I guess.

In terms of the antagonist stuff no it doesn’t have to be in same session but being time poor and recovery days needed I don’t want to through in more dedicated sessions to that if I’m honest and ultimately shoulders and elbows suffer without it.
 

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