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I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him.

:whistle:

My memory of that phone call is that we concluded that Doyle had got the wrong end of the stick;

:whistle: Stupid old doyle eh! I only wish i could tell when people are joking. I blame it on my parents.


I can see Simpsons logic why he doesn't want to publish evidence before people come forward (and by the way i'm speaking purely as an associate here). If there are people out there that doubt him why not just confront him. He's not gonna twat you, he will though do his uptmost to prove you wrong. Personally i believe that Adam has real doubts about both Ben and Rich but he doesn't want to risk his reputation in case he's wrong. I could be wrong though, in fact i've had enough of this shit( :yawn:), as they say in the real thing ITS TIME TO CLIMB!
 
Why must the concepts of wanting to know the history of an ascent and desiring a degree of verification from top climbers as a matter of course, be endlessly conflated with calling someone a liar??? Climbers always want to know a bit of background but these days don’t want to ask because to do so seems to imediately to attract accusations of doubting, when all they are is curious.
”Nik at Work on an old thread” said:
to hide what is going on now is to deny future generations a historical context and creates a gap in the folklore
 
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I agreed Ben had little evidence for his ascents, however I have never said that I don't believe him.

You have confirmed everything I thought of you. Do you honestly believe that comment?

I though you were studying Law? Surely you understand expressing doubt does not necessarily mean outright disbelief. I still maintain there is not enough evidence on this for anyone but Ben to know the truth

Yes. I am studying Law, but the fact remains even if I where to be studying Horticultural science, it still wouldn’t be difficult to remember the occasion/s when I heard you, amongst many others, make outright remarks that Ben is a liar. It also seems I am not alone in hearing these remarks, and Chris has heard you too. Yet you go onto to deny it publically, thus it’s getting silly and should end here. But we both know the truth.

I really don't follow your logic here. Most people present their evidence up front and as a result never have any doubters. You seem to be on some kind of mission to actually create doubters? And then meet them? Why? It seems bizarre.

Again, I believe you are wrong. Most people do not present their evidence up front. Look at any big climbing webpage or magazine; you will often see news reports of people's ascent, but will never see a list of their evidence beneath. Never. I agree this is a shame- I wish climbing was a bit more regulated and that is why I am more than happy to provide evidence if asked. But I would firstly want to know the reasons why the evidence was required, which I believe is far enough as climbing is a personal activity and my ascents mean a lot to me. I would not want to provide evidence for the sole reason of a sick bitter joke.

people present their evidence up front and as a result never have any doubters

For arguments sake, if I were to use your example, I could probably construe doubts about pretty much everyone in the climbing scene; I have never heard or seen any of your 'evidence', does that mean I should have doubts about you? No, it does not. I believe it means I have little interest in your climbing and give you the benefit of the doubt. I am sure that if I paid an interest into your life and wanted to gain evidence regarding your ascents I would not go round Sheffield pubs asking Tom, Dick and Harry. I would just ask you, which would be the only way to get information that was correct, and not formed by 'Chinese whispers'.

On a final note, you claim there are no videos of me climbing, and I should release some videos to clear up any rumors that may, or may not be forming, which in hindsight is a fare point. Yet it doesn’t take a genius to get hold of a substantial amount of footage of me climbing. For example;

Chris Doyle has openly distributed a film called 'Perky Pinky' featuring a me climbing in the school, doing pretty much every hard problem in there (in one session may I add) campussing 1-5-9 about ten times on the trot, and doing 9 one armed pull ups after about 4 hours of solid climbing. Obviously, this is indoor climbing, I am certain you will believe it has not relevance to a 5c arete on the grit. However, your opinion is particularly rare on this one, and I believe this film does my capabilities quite well.

If you look a little further, Doyle also has given out a film called Obsession. Yes, I would be the first to admit that Doyle did not capture my actual ascent of Action Directe. But he did, in the only session of good conditions, film me climb from the second move to the end pretty easily, and go on to climb the first two moves with ease. Obviously not a full ascent, but clearly showing my ability to climb the route with relative ease. This film also shows me walk up a hard 8B, in direct sun making the conditions less than ideal. This ascent led Markus Bock to express amazement, (as this route is renowned for needing perfect conditions for its slopey crux pinch). I also went on to do the single crux move ( a move rated about V13) in one session on an 1 move 8c+ called Vanquish. Again not full ascents, but still showing my capabilities of doing V13 in a session.

I understand you may feel that it is strange that Chris was not there to film Action Directe (just of note, there was five others there, so I am not short of witnesses). But if you talk to me personally, I have very good reasoning, but am not willing to disclose it publicly.

The even eager beaver could also find footage of my climbing a handful of V12/13 boulder problems in the Gunks on the Urban Climber webpage. These where not done in a short session, and again I believe show my ability to climb stuff of this grade with ease.

Not a lot, I agree, but it is a start. I cannot post anything more until I collect my footage from Birmingham (where it is all kept). But out of interest Adam, if I were to provide more footage, what exactly do you believe would help clear things up (i.e. what routes/boulders do I need to provide footage for?), What do I need to show that the above does not show already?

I look forward to your response.
 
Bonjoy said:
Why must the concepts of wanting to know the history of an ascent and desiring a degree of verification from top climbers as a matter of course, be endlessly conflated with calling someone a liar??? Climbers always want to know a bit of background but these days don’t want to ask because to do so seems to imediately to attract accusations of doubting, when all they are is curious. What ever happened to….
”Buoux 8c” said:
to hide what is going on now is to deny future generations a historical context and creates a gap in the folklore

Yes. I agree John. Which is why I have always been willing to provide information if asked outright. Surely one cannot base history on hearsay, and as no one has never asked me, it seems this is what people are doing. I am, and always have been more than happy to talk about my ascents if asked. I have always been reluctant to bring them up, as, believe it or not, id rather not talk about stuff if it can be helped. But if people ask, I will always try my best to answer.
 
Just of note.

The even eager beaver could also find footage of my climbing a handful of V12/13 boulder problems in the Gunks on the Urban Climber webpage. These where not done in a short session, and again I believe show my ability to climb stuff of this grade with ease.

This should have read, these were both climbed in a short session.

And John, where exactly did you get that quote from me? Im pretty sure that is not my writitng, so it would be great for you to enlighten me as to the specific page. Thanks.
 
I'd love to see the Careless video! An onsight of this route was the holy grail of peak grit bouldering for quite some time and to watch footage of the prize being claimed would be awesome!!

The quote is a direct lift from the deleted Heason topic.
 
andy popp said:
Boy, has this been an edifying spectacle.

I'll second that...

An insight into the top end of the sport you simply dont get on DVDs or as mutterings overheard in a pub. Certainly brought me back to my PC over a dozen times over the last 24 hrs... I've nearly forgotten about my trashed ankle; great distraction therapy.
 
John. Are you sure if was my comment though? Im asking because I don’t believe it was me that wrote that. Can you check that it is not someone else’s quote? I'm not calling you a liar, but would like confirmation.

With regards to the Careless video. I would be happy to show you, when I get hold of a copy from home. However, just for the record, I was supposed to be supplying the careless video for use in Sam and Rhy's new video. But when I heard of the rumors/gestures from them, amongst others, I obviously felt reluctant to freely provide my video for their use. Which at the time I believed was fare enough. Maybe with the benefit of hindsight it was not the right thing to do, but at the time I was understandably pissed off.

ps, It was never an onsite. Nor was it claimed to be. It was bouldered as all boulder problems should be.

pps, As already commented both Adam and Dense had the opportunity to watch an ascent first hand, but both refused my offer.
 
An insight into the top end of the sport you simply dont get on DVDs or as mutterings overheard in a pub. Certainly brought me back to my PC over a dozen times over the last 24 hrs... I've nearly forgotten about my trashed ankle; great distraction therapy.

It's a shame isn't it. Such an embarrassing sport in most aspects. Still, it's all a learning curve.
 
it's not a shame per se....

better out in the open I suppose - i dont get most of what you're all going on about but it's perversely compelling reading... this forum is a bit like listening to the Archers: know the plot roughly, dont know all the characters but every once in a while there's a gem of an episode.
 
fatdoc said:
this forum is a bit like listening to the Archers: know the plot roughly, dont know all the characters but every once in a while there's a gem of an episode.

Or not exactly a gem of an episode in normal terms, but an episode that winds everyone up and causes a great many people to just turn off (that was not meant as a diss to any of the protaganists by the way; I understand your passion and drive to respond).

Good analogy by the way. I really do hate the Archers though.
 
:oops: I'm really sorry Rich your memory is correct, that was actually written by Nik at Work. Feel free to -ve karma me, if I could do it I'd punter myself for you
Will edit post
 
fatdoc said:
this forum is a bit like listening to the Archers: know the plot roughly, dont know all the characters but every once in a while there's a gem of an episode.

More like Twin Peaks. It's all a bit wierd and there are loads of odd people. You think you know roughly what's going on most of the time, although there are the occasional curveballs that don't make sense but you shrug your shoulders and enjoy it anyway.

Although it's shit from Season 2.
 
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