Simon Lee
insect overlord #1
UKB has a long running thread called “Dead Fit Birds Who Go Climbing” (DFBWGC for short)Now in its 3rd incarnation the current thread has over 2,000 post and 200,000 views. Clearly it is popular and for obvious reasons. Typically a post will include a picture of a woman climbing and commentary of various kinds ensues. My personal view was that it’s a harmless juvenile indulgence and refreshing antidote to a politically correct world.
Since acquiring UKB we (Toby and I) have received various missives from UKC demanding we do this or that which we have politely declined. The latest stone lobbed over the fence was CC’ed elsewhere to enlist wider support in the industry to apply pressure on us to make changes they felt were appropriate. Clearly we don’t welcome this sort of interference which stems from historical antagonisms that hopefully we can all move on from. They do their thing – we do ours.
However, amongst other things the email contained an accusation that DFBWGC was misogynist. This struck a chord with an industry professional who felt it was “insulting to women”. Mentally I wrote this off as “you can’t please them all”. However, the following morning at Raven Tor I bumped into UKB regular Joe Le Sausage and his partner Vicki. I chatted about DFBWGC and was surprised that they also both had a negative view. Vicki raised some points that I hadn’t considered before which made me think again :-\. I thought this required further investigation and consequently Toby and I canvassed further opinion by email asking the following:
Which of the following views do you have, broadly speaking, on the DFBWGC thread:
1. It’s misogynist – I’d like to see it removed
2. It’s offensive – I’d like to see it removed
3. It’s laddish – I can live with it
4. It’s a bit pathetic – I can live with it
5. It’s a bit of fun – I like it
6. It’s a celebration of female climbers – I like it
Here’s the feedback:
Vicki Robinson (author of Everyday Masculinities and Extreme Sport: Male Identity and Rock Climbing)
'My view is that overall, the thread goes beyond being 'just a bit of fun' (though some of the entries could, arguably, be seen as that). I don't think it really celebrates women climbers, apart from their looks that is. Not too many women in there who aren't 'traditionally' attractive, even if they do climb E9 I noted!
I think misogynist is a trifle strong, but I can see how some women climbers (and some men) could well be offended by sporting women being so trivialised. I think the entries vary from having a laugh and making (crap) jokes -(which actually is more what the thread is about -men showing off to
each other and not really about women climbers..)- and then some posters crossing a line which goes from taking the piss, to being sexist, and therefore offensive to some.
If I was a woman climber who used the site, it would piss me off it was there. There seems to me two options, zap it as some posts are offensive, not to say repetitive, tedious and humourless or start a thread on male climbers to show that instead of being so pathetic they should be out on the grit more.."
Katherine Schirrmacher
This is a tricky subject. I am well aware that all this started out as a laddish down the pub type of thing. But I’m also aware this thread is ongoing for a number of years, which to my mind means there’s something more to it. Believe me women would not spend this long on this sort of subject. Of course we discuss things like this on a superficial level but then let it go after an hour down the pub. If it’s just a laddish discussion I’m really not that bothered but I am when it goes further commenting on age, how over muscular they are (meaning this may not be attractive even though it’s necessary to climb well) or thinness as these issues are more worrying (and this thread does touch on this kind of thing).
To be honest I’ve been shouted down about these kind of issues before so I’m loathed to get involved. This is a form of sexism in itself where a minority group (in this case women) aren’t able to fully express their thoughts and I’ve learnt on certain subjects like this just to let it go over my head.......This kind of thread certainly gives the impression that it’s a male dominated site. There are other threads on there that just generally give the impression that it’s not a place where lots of female climbers input their views. The site doesn’t appeal to me at all and generally there aren’t many female posters.
Other responses:
Respondent 1: “After consultation with the women in the office we'd probably go for a 3/4 i.e. not mad about it but can live with it. Kind of prefer it when the women are actually climbing - but guess you can't police each photo!”
Respondent 2: “That'll be a 3 from me. Don't think it's misogynistic at all. Was all prepared to get irritated when I looked at the thread but it didn't bother me at all (maybe I've not seen it all!). Would be fairly surprised if many female climbers would have a problem with it but there's bound to be a few....and then a second email....Was just thinking a bit more about the thread and had a look at a few more pages. Guess I'd go for a 3/4. It's the comments that could be a problem. Was thinking how I'd feel if there were pictures and comments of myself or a close friend, and I would probably be pretty upset if I'm honest! Still, doesn't mean I think the thread should be pulled. Guess I just accept that men are men”
Respondent 3: “Hmmm. Well it's not pr0n, is it? The photos seem to be mostly reprints of existing photos. Though I'm not familiar with the majority of the women, I'm guessing they are pro's?
“I found some of the exchanges funny - seems like there's a guy willing to defend/find something appealing about each of the women. Plus there's quite a bit of "inside" banter/giving shit between the posters which is very common on any forum.
Otherwise, it's just juvenile and stupid - probably like the posters themselves. As long as the posts were in good fun, not blatantly lewd/crass or inappropriate such as posting photos of 13 year olds, then I could live with it. My feeling is that men will always find a way to ogle and objectify women especially in a rather anonymous format such as an online forum. So instead of fighting it, set up a system that allows it to have a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, bathroom humour existence.
Would it be possible to have a rating scale that other posters could flag posts as misogynistic, obnoxious, etc thereby publicly shaming the poster and/or blocking them from posting again? I think it could work to let the posters self-police. My guess is that there are a certain number of lurkers who are pretty decent human beings and who would quietly report a poster if crotch shots of 13 year olds started appearing. A lot of forums have a disclaimer that lets posters know that they will be banned or reported for a variety of reasons, although I don't know what "authority" you - the owner - would report them to. My guess is that the egregious offenders will just set up another fictitious profile and keep posting. I don't know how you solve for that.
I didn't quite understand the rating criteria being used, possibly because the british slang was not familiar to me. But if a photo of me appeared I guess I wouldn't care so much because I'd have the opportunity to flame or respond to any comments. I find the possibility of me appearing on such a forum quite remote since it would mean that either a friend/acquaintance posted the photo or some pathetic dude surreptitiously took a photo and posted it. If said friend posted the photo, they would have to deal with me in person, if a stranger posted the photo then they would have to deal with me and all my friends. It's a no-win situation for the poor poster. I think that most of my female friends would feel the same way. Of course there's a certain % of women (and men) who will be incredibly offended by this kind of forum but people are offended by anything. You could probably have a forum posting pictures of cute baby kittens at climbing crags and someone out there will be offended”.
Respondent 4: “I’d like to see it removed] and I would be horrified if I appeared on it. I wonder if those girls who appeared on the thread gave consent....because for me, It feels like harassment”.
Respondent 5: “As far as the thread (which I have seen before and have read several pages)....I'd opt for 6 It doesn't bother me. I could see myself posting to a similar thread but with dead fit "men".....If I appeared on it, I would be indifferent. I'd probably read it amusingly or check it out and not really read anymore”.
Respondent 6: “for me it was both 3). it's laddish, but i can live with it and 4). it's a bit pathetic, but i can live with it. I don't think i would appear on it, if i did, i would not be too thrilled! i wouldn't be horrified but i would be more flattered if i was on there because i climbed something well and looked great too! It was more the comments that were a little lame yes? with that said, if the comments stay relatively clean then i don't see the harm of it, i can see it being pretty popular amongst men. Its not something i would go back and visit though, but maybe its because i prefer scantily clad men
.”.
Clearly the views are divergent. However, none of the above felt it was misogynist but only one went option 6 i.e. It’s a celebration of female climbers – I like it. However, if all the comments that were made on the DFBWGC thread were left on or certain discussions were allowed to get out of hand the view would almost certainly be very different. From a moderating point of view it is perplexing on when to draw the line when the line is so blurred. Moderation is light at UKB and if in doubt we generally leave posts in. Lest you think I am being overly precious here, a couple of recent comments (late night and no doubt alcohol fuelled) that have clearly overstepped and been removed are as follows: “She won't be as annoying when she's sucking on my cock!” and “Let's face it, she might be a daft ambitious hillwalker, but you'd still ram her full of spunk until she started sweating it out”
So whither DFBWGC ? :-\
On the evidence of responses it is not, as UKC claim, misogynist and so overall does not breach our current Moderating policy such as it is. However, it is troublesome for us from a commercial and individual post moderation perspective. On the other hand it is an institution on UKB - but then again as an institution it gives the (we believe false) perception of an engrained sexism which undermines and trivialises female climbers.
Conclusion
DFBWGC has been and no doubt will continue to cause problems for us with respect to moderating specific posts and by putting off some potential sponsors particularly when the competition makes it their business to draw specific attention to it and characterise UKB as encouraging misogyny. For these reasons I propose giving DFBWGC an honourable burial by locking the topic and moving it to the shit heap
Anyone care to oppose the motion? Comments and votes please...
P.S. Thanks to everyone who responded to our questionnaire and provided views - especially Vicki Robinson and Katherine Schirrmacher.
Since acquiring UKB we (Toby and I) have received various missives from UKC demanding we do this or that which we have politely declined. The latest stone lobbed over the fence was CC’ed elsewhere to enlist wider support in the industry to apply pressure on us to make changes they felt were appropriate. Clearly we don’t welcome this sort of interference which stems from historical antagonisms that hopefully we can all move on from. They do their thing – we do ours.
However, amongst other things the email contained an accusation that DFBWGC was misogynist. This struck a chord with an industry professional who felt it was “insulting to women”. Mentally I wrote this off as “you can’t please them all”. However, the following morning at Raven Tor I bumped into UKB regular Joe Le Sausage and his partner Vicki. I chatted about DFBWGC and was surprised that they also both had a negative view. Vicki raised some points that I hadn’t considered before which made me think again :-\. I thought this required further investigation and consequently Toby and I canvassed further opinion by email asking the following:
Which of the following views do you have, broadly speaking, on the DFBWGC thread:
1. It’s misogynist – I’d like to see it removed
2. It’s offensive – I’d like to see it removed
3. It’s laddish – I can live with it
4. It’s a bit pathetic – I can live with it
5. It’s a bit of fun – I like it
6. It’s a celebration of female climbers – I like it
Here’s the feedback:
Vicki Robinson (author of Everyday Masculinities and Extreme Sport: Male Identity and Rock Climbing)
'My view is that overall, the thread goes beyond being 'just a bit of fun' (though some of the entries could, arguably, be seen as that). I don't think it really celebrates women climbers, apart from their looks that is. Not too many women in there who aren't 'traditionally' attractive, even if they do climb E9 I noted!
I think misogynist is a trifle strong, but I can see how some women climbers (and some men) could well be offended by sporting women being so trivialised. I think the entries vary from having a laugh and making (crap) jokes -(which actually is more what the thread is about -men showing off to
each other and not really about women climbers..)- and then some posters crossing a line which goes from taking the piss, to being sexist, and therefore offensive to some.
If I was a woman climber who used the site, it would piss me off it was there. There seems to me two options, zap it as some posts are offensive, not to say repetitive, tedious and humourless or start a thread on male climbers to show that instead of being so pathetic they should be out on the grit more.."
Katherine Schirrmacher
This is a tricky subject. I am well aware that all this started out as a laddish down the pub type of thing. But I’m also aware this thread is ongoing for a number of years, which to my mind means there’s something more to it. Believe me women would not spend this long on this sort of subject. Of course we discuss things like this on a superficial level but then let it go after an hour down the pub. If it’s just a laddish discussion I’m really not that bothered but I am when it goes further commenting on age, how over muscular they are (meaning this may not be attractive even though it’s necessary to climb well) or thinness as these issues are more worrying (and this thread does touch on this kind of thing).
To be honest I’ve been shouted down about these kind of issues before so I’m loathed to get involved. This is a form of sexism in itself where a minority group (in this case women) aren’t able to fully express their thoughts and I’ve learnt on certain subjects like this just to let it go over my head.......This kind of thread certainly gives the impression that it’s a male dominated site. There are other threads on there that just generally give the impression that it’s not a place where lots of female climbers input their views. The site doesn’t appeal to me at all and generally there aren’t many female posters.
Other responses:
Respondent 1: “After consultation with the women in the office we'd probably go for a 3/4 i.e. not mad about it but can live with it. Kind of prefer it when the women are actually climbing - but guess you can't police each photo!”
Respondent 2: “That'll be a 3 from me. Don't think it's misogynistic at all. Was all prepared to get irritated when I looked at the thread but it didn't bother me at all (maybe I've not seen it all!). Would be fairly surprised if many female climbers would have a problem with it but there's bound to be a few....and then a second email....Was just thinking a bit more about the thread and had a look at a few more pages. Guess I'd go for a 3/4. It's the comments that could be a problem. Was thinking how I'd feel if there were pictures and comments of myself or a close friend, and I would probably be pretty upset if I'm honest! Still, doesn't mean I think the thread should be pulled. Guess I just accept that men are men”
Respondent 3: “Hmmm. Well it's not pr0n, is it? The photos seem to be mostly reprints of existing photos. Though I'm not familiar with the majority of the women, I'm guessing they are pro's?
“I found some of the exchanges funny - seems like there's a guy willing to defend/find something appealing about each of the women. Plus there's quite a bit of "inside" banter/giving shit between the posters which is very common on any forum.
Otherwise, it's just juvenile and stupid - probably like the posters themselves. As long as the posts were in good fun, not blatantly lewd/crass or inappropriate such as posting photos of 13 year olds, then I could live with it. My feeling is that men will always find a way to ogle and objectify women especially in a rather anonymous format such as an online forum. So instead of fighting it, set up a system that allows it to have a wink-wink, nudge-nudge, bathroom humour existence.
Would it be possible to have a rating scale that other posters could flag posts as misogynistic, obnoxious, etc thereby publicly shaming the poster and/or blocking them from posting again? I think it could work to let the posters self-police. My guess is that there are a certain number of lurkers who are pretty decent human beings and who would quietly report a poster if crotch shots of 13 year olds started appearing. A lot of forums have a disclaimer that lets posters know that they will be banned or reported for a variety of reasons, although I don't know what "authority" you - the owner - would report them to. My guess is that the egregious offenders will just set up another fictitious profile and keep posting. I don't know how you solve for that.
I didn't quite understand the rating criteria being used, possibly because the british slang was not familiar to me. But if a photo of me appeared I guess I wouldn't care so much because I'd have the opportunity to flame or respond to any comments. I find the possibility of me appearing on such a forum quite remote since it would mean that either a friend/acquaintance posted the photo or some pathetic dude surreptitiously took a photo and posted it. If said friend posted the photo, they would have to deal with me in person, if a stranger posted the photo then they would have to deal with me and all my friends. It's a no-win situation for the poor poster. I think that most of my female friends would feel the same way. Of course there's a certain % of women (and men) who will be incredibly offended by this kind of forum but people are offended by anything. You could probably have a forum posting pictures of cute baby kittens at climbing crags and someone out there will be offended”.
Respondent 4: “I’d like to see it removed] and I would be horrified if I appeared on it. I wonder if those girls who appeared on the thread gave consent....because for me, It feels like harassment”.
Respondent 5: “As far as the thread (which I have seen before and have read several pages)....I'd opt for 6 It doesn't bother me. I could see myself posting to a similar thread but with dead fit "men".....If I appeared on it, I would be indifferent. I'd probably read it amusingly or check it out and not really read anymore”.
Respondent 6: “for me it was both 3). it's laddish, but i can live with it and 4). it's a bit pathetic, but i can live with it. I don't think i would appear on it, if i did, i would not be too thrilled! i wouldn't be horrified but i would be more flattered if i was on there because i climbed something well and looked great too! It was more the comments that were a little lame yes? with that said, if the comments stay relatively clean then i don't see the harm of it, i can see it being pretty popular amongst men. Its not something i would go back and visit though, but maybe its because i prefer scantily clad men
.”.Clearly the views are divergent. However, none of the above felt it was misogynist but only one went option 6 i.e. It’s a celebration of female climbers – I like it. However, if all the comments that were made on the DFBWGC thread were left on or certain discussions were allowed to get out of hand the view would almost certainly be very different. From a moderating point of view it is perplexing on when to draw the line when the line is so blurred. Moderation is light at UKB and if in doubt we generally leave posts in. Lest you think I am being overly precious here, a couple of recent comments (late night and no doubt alcohol fuelled) that have clearly overstepped and been removed are as follows: “She won't be as annoying when she's sucking on my cock!” and “Let's face it, she might be a daft ambitious hillwalker, but you'd still ram her full of spunk until she started sweating it out”
So whither DFBWGC ? :-\
On the evidence of responses it is not, as UKC claim, misogynist and so overall does not breach our current Moderating policy such as it is. However, it is troublesome for us from a commercial and individual post moderation perspective. On the other hand it is an institution on UKB - but then again as an institution it gives the (we believe false) perception of an engrained sexism which undermines and trivialises female climbers.
Conclusion
DFBWGC has been and no doubt will continue to cause problems for us with respect to moderating specific posts and by putting off some potential sponsors particularly when the competition makes it their business to draw specific attention to it and characterise UKB as encouraging misogyny. For these reasons I propose giving DFBWGC an honourable burial by locking the topic and moving it to the shit heap
Anyone care to oppose the motion? Comments and votes please...
P.S. Thanks to everyone who responded to our questionnaire and provided views - especially Vicki Robinson and Katherine Schirrmacher.
