Parking and access in National Parks etc.

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Agree with Mark20 and Nige. What we need is some sort of pop-up car park that normally is barely there but when required has massive capacity. Remarkably this used to exist in the form of verges - when I first moved to Sheffield in the late nineties you could park on most of the verges around the Eastern Edges, without causing problems. Almost all of it has now been shut down - hundreds and hundreds of spaces. Initially this was in the form of bunds, more recently unnecessary double yellows. What they should have done was bund the odd soft/ narrow bit and reinforce the rest of the verges in a low-key manner, plus some judicious double yellows and we wouldn't have a problem.

Having wasted many hours as a climbing advocate trying to improve this situation I've got a better understanding of it than most. The control over it is spread between three authorities - Highways Authority, DCC, and the Peak Park. They don't work together well (barely talk), and for the last twenty years mostly operating in a falling-budget short-sighted fire-fighting situation.

First, I think it was HA that erected miles of bunds because they didn't want the cost of maintaining eroding verges, with no consultation. This pushed the problem into less suitable areas. Meanwhile PDNPA were rolling out charges to all their car parks because a consultant, who didn't consult any stakeholders, thought it was no-brainer to charge for parking. That pushed more people onto the few verges left, which got hammered. Then we had Covid, which brought more people, so we got loads of double yellows in the hope they'd magically go away again.

TLDR - big picture is an increasing population with increasing car ownership increasingly want to visit the countryside, against a steadily reduction in the availability of parking. Then this weekend, the car parks are unusable. What the fuck is anyone supposed to do? Personally, I find this blaming of the individuals a horrible Daily Mail-style reaction that for some reason seems always seems popular in Britain. Simple but wrong, them not us, never look at the big picture, just suggest that the general public are shitbags.
 
I think its possible to acknowledge there are structural issues and also accept that people are acting like twats. The problem with recourse to 'its a big picture problem' is it lets individuals off the hook. Obviously its a combination of both. Re the 90s - were people really visiting in comparable numbers to today?

Re 'what the fuck is anyone supposed to do?-' I would maintain that 'if you can't park without blocking the road, don't park' is a perfectly coherent position. If that makes me Daily Mail adjacent, so be it!
 
It is very frustrating that the Peak District is a National Park that is largely privately owned, on a semi-related topic

It is also very frustrating that public transport is all privatised
 
97% of the Dales! Yeah, its a shame, but short of a revolution we're kind of stuck with that element of it I think.
 
I agree with Jim. It's very charitable not to blame the general public, but you only have to look at any roadside verge and the amount of litter to see that there are actually a lot of shitbags out there. What's the 'big picture' excuse for throwing stuff out of your car window?
 
Fair enough, but the principle is the same. In the absence of a bin to hand it's shitty behaviour to throw litter out of your window. In the absence of a usable car park it's shitty behaviour just to ditch your car blocking the road regardless of the reasons for lack of parking.
 
The worlds full of bellends.. by and large, they kept themselves to the themselves. Unfortunately, the internet was invented, then social media was invented, then Covid hit. Now, all the bellends of all the world have discovered 'the great outdoors' and what's more, thanks to social media and cheap private transport, they have all the tools to get to their chosen instagram honeytrap, park, get to the spot, get their photos, upload them, and fuck off again.

It was interesting that we parked up there a over christmas, it was like nothing I've ever seen and I grew up in Castleton in the 70s/80s/90's, arguably in its heydays of tourism, before drink driving was banned, ryan air flights for 30quid and games consoles where invented.

We managed to get a spot off the road in one of bays and set off on one of our Ethel ticking jaunts (admittedly, possibly an as facile and pointless digitally enabled excerise as instagram photos). Thing is, we turned left at Mam Nick not right, towards Lords Seat, (and on to Gautries, Eldon, Slitherstones). Within moments we were alone, and totally genuiely saw about another 10 people all day, compared to the Glasto esque circus onto of Mam tor.

So whats the answer. ... who knows, the Peak Park has got next to no money after Dave swung has big austerity axe.

I think Toms quote from the other thread is very valid and has been overlooked on this thread....
I think the National Parks have several “critical issues”. One of which is that none have very much money to deal with the other “critical issues”.

Beyond that (lifted from https://www.cnp.org.uk/our-national-parks/national-park-faqs/), National Parks have two purposes:
  • To conserve and enhance the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heritage
  • To promote opportunities for the public understanding and enjoyment of the special qualities of the Parks
In cases where conflict exists between the two purposes and reconciliation proves impossible, the first purpose should take precedence – this is known as the Sandford Principle.

So the only way to conserver and enhace the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heriage, is to reduce visitor numbers, which means restricting parking and more importanly, consistantly enforcing the restrictions.

Yes more public transport is essential.

Not sure I'd want to look out over that fantastic green limestone vista from mam tor, down onto a sea cars, like a jetparks 3 at manchester airport.
Somewhat takes away from the "natural Beauty" bit.

I did wonder about the hard flat floor of Eldon hill quarry though.
 
It is also very frustrating that public transport is all privatised

Yup, but there is some movement happening in terms of potential for reclaiming of public control, e.g. via franchising (where buses are still owned by private companies but there is local authority control over routes etc.).

See this piece explaining what franchising means in reference to the franchising consultation in the West Midlands: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cpvnvkd2erdo

https://weownit.org.uk/VotePublicControlSY has a guide to contributing to the franchising consultation for South Yorkshire, which I believe you can do until the 15th.

See also the new Buses Bill:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...egislation-to-boost-local-control-of-services
 
So the only way to conserver and enhace the natural beauty, wildlife and cultural heriage, is to reduce visitor numbers, which means restricting parking and more importanly, consistantly enforcing the restrictions.
Seriously? This is bonkers. You are not going to reduce visitor numbers to a National Park. They are going to increase, because, as I said above, there are more people, there are more cars, and people are increasingly desperate to escape from banal urban pursuits and connect with actual naturalish reality. Plus, since the advent of social media natural beauty gets free marketing that allows it to compete with for attention with paid attractions.

One half of the dual purpose of the National parks is to help people enjoy and understand the landscape, and even promote it. The Sanford principle gets invoked when you have a specific instance like a rare bird nesting on a rock climb, not the general principle of visitors to the Peak (which let’s face it is in large part ecologically fucked by farming and quarrying) and definitely not on the question of parking on verges.
 
Firstly I think we should separate out the last weekend as a special case.

I only have anecdotal data (i.e. my memory of what it used to be like!), but I suspect visitor numbers have increased massively since the 90's yes. They have most definitely increased since Covid (there is data in one of the links in previous post I think?).

In a country with increasing population and increasing car use / reduced public transport this increased demand should hardly come as a surprise. The response to this obvious course of events by the various powers that be in the Peak has been to reduce supply via either outright removal of spaces and monetization via charges. JB has already eloquently and expertly expressed the causes and the timeline on this side of things. I guess there may be younger UKB users (probably not!) so to give a flavour to them; all car parks used to be free - Plantation, Hook's Carr, Burbage Bridge, Surprise View, Curbar Gap etc.

To go back to my previous post, who and what are national parks for? If they are for the benefit of the *general public* then pursuing a course over time of restricting access to the general public, then blaming them for any flare ups caused as a result is only half the story. The Sandford Principle thing is a complete red herring imo - this is not a question of the landscape itself being wrecked, its bad parking on public highways! In this instance the two purposes *could* be reconciled, but it would take a unified approach to achieve which is not currently on the cards.
 
I only have anecdotal data (i.e. my memory of what it used to be like!), but I suspect visitor numbers have increased massively since the 90's yes.

This is my suspicion too, which tbh makes me think that JB's 'if only it was still possible to park on the verges, there wouldn't be an issue' (paraphrasing, obviously) is unlikely to be true. The increased number of visitors would surely vastly outstrip the amount of suitable verge parking, even in a world where the bunding/double yellowing hadn't happened. Obviously its an unknowable, but I am cynical that it would make much difference.

If we accept there are vastly more visitor numbers (which I think everyone does) and that those numbers will likely go up, a big problem that needs addressing is honeypotting. Mam Tor is obviously a prime example of this. Theres a lot of room (and parking!) in our NPs but people's determination to go to the same places, of which climbers are a part, makes it tricky. Dunno how we do that admittedly!
 
I don’t think peak numbers have increased ‘vastly’, actually. There must be stats, I’d guess perhaps more of these peak days post-Covid, with increased numbers of ‘noobs’, and habits have changed eg van camping and honey pots like Mam tor and Bamford; I remember discussing it with Bill, the Stanage warden, who had to deal with these issues since the late seventies. But days when demand exceeds supply are more common and caused mainly due to decrease in supply. You used to be able to park fully on the verges all the way from the top of Ringinglow to Burbage, and from Toads Mouth to Surprise view, and without causing issues like we see now due to the bunds pushing the cars into the road. Then there were small lay-bys like below Froggatt or Gardoms that were blocked up for no obvious reason.
 
I liked Stone's Banff model of wheelchair accessible wolves. Might help with the parking situation here too.
 
I chose to climb on Skye in the recent cold weather.. saw maybe 4 other people in 2 days winter climbing on Blaven. It seemed a better idea than trying to enjoy nature by rubbing shoulders with five hundred thousand other people in a city-adjacent country park and then being pissed off about it.
 
I'd probably reluctantly support a ban on unofficial camping in UK national parks.
This has happened in Loch Lomond NP, mainly as a reaction to people from nearby large cities (I'll refrain from using common slurs!) going mad with wild camping during the post COVID travel restrictions and leaving the place a mess of shite and leftover rubbish. I'm surprised other NPs never followed suit.
 
when I first moved to Sheffield in the late nineties you could park on most of the verges around the Eastern Edges, without causing problems. Almost all of it has now been shut down - hundreds and hundreds of spaces. Initially this was in the form of bunds, more recently unnecessary double yellows. What they should have done was bund the odd soft/ narrow bit and reinforce the rest of the verges in a low-key manner, plus some judicious double yellows and we wouldn't have a problem.
Who built these bunds? Was it Derbyshire County Council (who do the roads) or Peak District National Park or National Trust or who? Was this a discussed strategy at the National Park Authority?

Seems like people in charge of this have an active campaign to keep visitors out. They are spending our tax money on keeping us out of our park.
 
As I said, I think it was the Highways Authority. Possibly DCC. Nothing to do with the NPA or NT, and as I said, no consultation with them or users. It was the main reason I joined the Stanage forum, because it was so transparently wrong I couldn’t understand how it had happened. My view was shared by many others, but removing the bunds never seemed to be taken seriously, presumably due to the different agencies not being in communication, and in the context of falling budgets. Plus there are always a few nimby locals who think tourists are a problem that should be got rid of.

I don’t believe it was ‘an active campaign to keep visitor’s out’. Just like the Sheffield tree saga, it was a ‘business’ (they are not a business) decision to spend some money in the short term to save money on maintenance in the long term, and do it quick, without consultation. Silo thinking, budget driven. Not really a model of how to run a national treasure like Stanage.
 
I chose to climb in Japan in the recent cold weather - maybe saw zero other people over 2 days in a secret mountain gorge on the north side of Mount Fuji. The 62 hour total journey was scarcely more inconvenient for the average Manchester-dweller, and it seemed a better idea than rubbing shoulders with 4 people in between 18 hours driving for a round trip to Skye.
 

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