One for the runners

[James Malloch]

I tested out some different shoes today and went 4 min run, 1 min walk with the aim of doing loops and just seeing what happened.

Right knee was largely fine (could feel it a tiny bit, but my other “good knee” did exactly the same thing after about 35 mins (so 28mins of running minus some stops to send the dog in the river).

Ended up stopping at 40 mins for 7.5km, got a sausage roll and wandered back home. Dropped a friend (whos a physio) a message and he said it definitely sounds like a weird nervous system response.

So I’ll keep playing with splits and keep it varied and see how i can make it work. I’d like to join the local running club so could do with getting to be able to do 5-8 miles without having to walk too much…

 

[James Malloch]

I tested out some different shoes today and went 4 min run, 1 min walk with the aim of doing loops and just seeing what happened.

Right knee was largely fine (could feel it a tiny bit, but my other “good knee” did exactly the same thing after about 35 mins (so 28mins of running minus some stops to send the dog in the river).

Ended up stopping at 40 mins for 7.5km, got a sausage roll and wandered back home. Dropped a friend (whos a physio) a message and he said it definitely sounds like a weird nervous system response.

So I’ll keep playing with splits and keep it varied and see how i can make it work. I’d like to join the local running club so could do with getting to be able to do 5-8 miles without having to walk too much…

An update on this injury…

Things were going well, got back to doing 10-15km (6 run, 1 walk). Took a week off and seemed to go back to square one.

I decided to get an Ultrasound yesterday just in case it was some weird psychological thing.

They identified a tiny tear where the calf attaches to my Fibula. It was small enough that she didn’t think it could be the source of any real pain.

But then she noticed that I have what she described as “stonking vein and arteries” running directly over it.

She thinks that the tear is exposing some nerves and at a certain point in a run (15-20mins) i must be reaching a critical HR/Blood pressure which is putting pressure on the nerve. Hence why the injury is so acute and means i can’t carry on, but also why it disappears very soon after i stop/cool down.

Also why walk/run was so successful as my fitness meant my HR dropped significantly with 1 min of walking, and hence delayed getting to that critical point. The fitter i got the longer it would hold off.

I’ve been advised to have 4-6 weeks of proper rest (potentially including climbing) to let the tear fully heal and then build up slowly from there.

That can start after Font next week… time for some
Campusing!

Assuming its a correct diagnosis i find it fascinating!

Also have some scans on Friday for Varicose veins in the same leg (GP this time so dont have to shell out £180 :2thumbsup. Not sure if it’s linked at all but good to know before then anyway.

 

[T_B]

Interesting!

Sounds promising. Good luck with it.

 

[SA Chris]

TL;DR not all carbon shoes gave a statistically significant improvement in running economy. A lot of the stuff I've read/listened to suggests that there are a couple of confounding factors when looking at carbon shoes and it isn't just the carbon plate that improves running economy. The increased stack height has the effect of increasing stride length but would be unstable without the curved carbon plate. However, the plate can only be curved because of the increased stack height and, if it wasn't curved, wouldn't have the same "propulsion" effect. Add to this that increased stack height is only possible because the density of the foam has been reduced so you aren't carrying extra weight on the end of each leg. So the end result is you can't separate the effects of the stack and the plate very easily. The Vaporfly has both, but not everything does.

Stabbsy's post in another thread reminded me of the great Science of Sport podcast about Carbon plated shoes.

https://play.acast.com/s/realscienceofsport/theshoethatmayhavechangedrunningforever

 

[James Malloch]

I’m building my running back up after getting some insoles and new shoes which, hopefully, are helping my calf injury…

I’ve done up to 25 mins running, sometimes in one go, others with a 2-4 minute walk around halfway through.

I’ve been going at about 5min/km pace with HR staying around zone 3 (or very bottom of zone 4). Today i was a bit faster - 4:44/km but felt good. The last km was a bit harder to keep my cadence up as i was a bit tired, but in this km my HR jumped from 155bpm to 165, and then up to 204bpm and stayed there (new max HR according to my watch).

My rate was definitely elevated but it seems so high given the pace still felt fine. I’m not sure if my watch was playing up or if there is some reason for it jumping so high.

It’s as far as I've ran for a while, but i don’t think I’m that unfit! Is there anything which could cause such a spike if it wasn’t my Garmin give erroneous readings?

 

[T_B]

Garmin playing up. Get an external HR monitor if you want an accurate reading (ones that fit over your upper arm seem all the rage). Or ditch the tech and run on feel.

 

[turnipturned]

Sounds like a garmin error- 204 for any length of time is pretty wild (had similar with my watch)

External HR are good. Get a chest strap (however remember to damp the sensors otherwise you will get similarly strange readings).

Agree with Tom try and go by feel, I use a HR monitor every now and then to gauge my heart for Z2 but don’t wear it on a regular basis. (Too much data drives you crazy)

 

[James Malloch]

Cheers! I assumed it must have been the watch, but it’s been so long since I’ve got to a high HR I can’t remember what it would be like!

I’m not really using the data at all, mainly using the metronome on the watch and using it for timings (building back up slowly). Once I’m more confident in my calf I’ll start to run a bit less constrained.

Good news is that some new shoes and some supportive insoles seem to be doing the trick, touch wood! I’ve ran (without any walk) for longer than 15 mins for the first time in about 5 years anyway! It’s nice to be moving again!

 

[Paul B]

External HR are good. Get a chest strap (however remember to damp the sensors otherwise you will get similarly strange readings).

...and remember to wash them / clean them or else they'll also do crazy things. It's worth noting that Whoop! bands still work as external HR monitors without paying the frankly ridiculous monthly fee.

 

[T_B]

Good news is that some new shoes and some supportive insoles seem to be doing the trick, touch wood! I’ve ran (without any walk) for longer than 15 mins for the first time in about 5 years anyway! It’s nice to be moving again!

That’s brilliant. I’ve been really lucky with injuries but went over on my (already bad) ankle in June and it’s been very unstable/weak since. Seeing a podiatrist next week (Colin Papworth who is well known in Sheffield). I run in 5 different shoes so I’m hoping he doesn’t tell me I have to chuck them all away and buy some stability shoes!

 

[James Malloch]

Good news is that some new shoes and some supportive insoles seem to be doing the trick, touch wood! I’ve ran (without any walk) for longer than 15 mins for the first time in about 5 years anyway! It’s nice to be moving again!

That’s brilliant. I’ve been really lucky with injuries but went over on my (already bad) ankle in June and it’s been very unstable/weak since. Seeing a podiatrist next week (Colin Papworth who is well known in Sheffield). I run in 5 different shoes so I’m hoping he doesn’t tell me I have to chuck them all away and buy some stability shoes!

I never got an actual diagnosis, but this was a last attempt to try and correct the way i was landing. Stiff shoes and some insoles to correct overpronation - the way i was landing was causing a fast change of angle in my ankle due to not landing straight.

I changed shoes and how i ran at the same times of the insoles, so not sure if any aspect if helping more than others, but for now I’ll take the benefits that seem to be happening.

I was surprised how many of the shoes which I’d been “fit” for looked awful when i was videoed on a treadmill.

I hope your appointment goes well!

 

[chriss]

Glad you are getting there, running injuries suck.... RE heartrate on the watch, you do wear it past the wrist bone (heading towards the elbow) You probably do, but thought I'd mention it.

I also have 4 road & 3 trail pairs of shoes, but they cross over (2 are due to be retired). It helps with injury prevention as it's a different foot strike with each pair. Essentially the only 'bad strike' is over striding.

 

[steveri]

The only pair of shoes I’ve not really got on with was when I was persuaded I needed stability shoes!

I was chatting to a mate at the fell relays who reckons he does most of his training in zone 2. Other people have tried to sell this to me in the past …except Frank is regularly top 5 in local races. Anyone else?

 

[James Malloch]

The only pair of shoes I’ve not really got on with was when I was persuaded I needed stability shoes!

I was chatting to a mate at the fell relays who reckons he does most of his training in zone 2. Other people have tried to sell this to me in the past …except Frank is regularly top 5 in local races. Anyone else?

I’m always surprised at how slow friends who do long races do in their regular runs. They said that sticking in zone 2 does wonders for their endurance and means they can do more runs as it takes less out of them.

Though I’ve no clue about any of that kind of thing…

 

[turnipturned]

I did the BGR this year and my three rules of thumb seemed to work well.

1. 80:20 i.e. 80% of my weekly run was Z2 with 20% speed/ intervals.

2. Don’t increase mileage for the 15% per week

3. Easy runs on tired legs

Took me a while to get used to running slowly (Z2) , but once I did, I really started to enjoyed it, you can think, connect and take in the environment much betters.

(*ps I know very little about training)

The only pair of shoes I’ve not really got on with was when I was persuaded I needed stability shoes!

I was chatting to a mate at the fell relays who reckons he does most of his training in zone 2. Other people have tried to sell this to me in the past …except Frank is regularly top 5 in local races. Anyone else?

 

[edshakey]

I was chatting to a mate at the fell relays who reckons he does most of his training in zone 2. Other people have tried to sell this to me in the past …except Frank is regularly top 5 in local races. Anyone else?

I also know someone who is regularly top 5 locally, who also trains z2 mostly. He was explaining it (something he read in a book) as keeping your HR in z2 burns fat supplies, so is sustainable for longer races. If your HR is in z3+, then you're using carbs, which normally causes a bit of a crash after 90-120 mins. [I don't perfectly recall what he said, so this might be slightly or totally false, pinch of salt, etc.] So fine if you're racing that time or less, but anyone looking at longer races probably wants to work on lowering heart rate during training runs. Apparently aggressively training this was very tedious and involved lots of walking, but something's working, he's having a great year results-wise.

I've also heard Emile Caress talk about this on a podcast, how he and many other elites do most of their training at very easy pace, and then just mix in some high intensity sessions - much like Dan's 80/20 idea above. I believe this strategy also has something to do with keeping your legs relatively fresh so the high intensity sessions are also high quality, whereas if you are constantly thrashing yourself, you won't be able to do a really good speed/hill session because your body is just knackered before you begin.
My one reservation with this is that it would appear to work for professional athletes, since they have the time to do 15+ slow miles every day, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'd be the right strategy for someone more time-poor, who maybe only gets to run 3 times a week. Maybe that person should be running harder in the sessions they can actually manage to fit in? This is just conjecture really though, I wouldn't be surprised if easy running could be a fundamental part of anyone's training plan.

 

[Stabbsy]

I did the BGR this year and my three rules of thumb seemed to work well.

1. 80:20 i.e. 80% of my weekly run was Z2 with 20% speed/ intervals.

2. Don’t increase mileage for the 15% per week

3. Easy runs on tired legs

Took me a while to get used to running slowly (Z2) , but once I did, I really started to enjoyed it, you can think, connect and take in the environment much betters.

(*ps I know very little about training)

There’s probably a longer post about this, but basically what Dan said.

There’s been numerous Science of Sport podcasts on it. I think this one was maybe the most accessible.

https://shows.acast.com/realscienceofsport/episodes/how-the-pros-train-and-what-we-can-learn-from-it

 

[chriss]

Lot's of runner's local to me work with a coach that does everything via heart rate, all of them have had good results knocking out regular PB's. This includes seasoned & fast runner's, not just newish people.

Again it focuses on low intensity, with say 2 quality session a week. I've trained a similar, but less scientific way & had good results. As mentioned it helps with fat adaption, you are also able to train more consistently which is the name of the game.

Few years ago I went to a talk with said coach & London marathon winner Mike Gratton. He said best improvements were running every day, the next step being twice a day. I guess this approach is for the dedication amateur, but standard for the elite. From memory Steve Jones used to just run hard all the time, the Ingebrigtsens mainly run at tempo.

 

[steveri]

My one reservation with this is that it would appear to work for professional athletes, since they have the time to do 15+ slow miles every day, but that doesn't necessarily mean it'd be the right strategy for someone more time-poor, who maybe only gets to run 3 times a week.

Mm, I get the theory but that's exactly my fear. I don't run anywhere near daily and less now I'm prioritising climbing more. Given I don't need much excuse to be lazy, I'm worried I might forget to try hard. Still if I can get a decent xc season that's guaranteed effort.

 

[Stabbsy]

N+1 etc., but I went from 5 runs a week with 2 sessions (1 speed, 1 threshold) and a weekend long run that was harder than easy to 5 runs a week all easy except one session and a few strides during one of the easies and improved dramatically at longer distances. My 5k time hardly changed.