Names we call each other

[SA Chris]

Thread title of "the labels we give / attach to each other" might have been better. Name calling implies insults, which was what I was expecting. Interesting discussion though.

 

[stone]

Considering how we talk about slavery now and how that relates to present day racism etc I'm most struck by how we seem to have airbrushed out the extent to which white Northern Europeans were themselves captured as slaves throughout much of history including relatively recently. It is as though we want the narrative to be that white brits were always top dogs, nasty but always on top. In reality before the Romans invaded, we were capturing one another to sell to the Romans as slaves. Then Vikings captured people from UK en-mass to export as slaves as far afield as central Asia, then Barbary Pirates captured British people to export as slaves to North Africa. That overlapped with the trans-Atlantic slave trade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

I wonder whether telling history as it is might help to deflate white-supremacist nonsense.

 

[petejh]

Was thinking similar after listening to Melvyn Bragg last week talking about the Barbary pirates. I imagine part of the reason the 'everyone enslaving everyone' narrative isn't talked about in the mainstream as much as the 'white Europeans enslaving Africans' is that white northern Europeans are the more successful and powerful group at this moment in history, relative to the other areas. Might not always be the case.

We also don't talk much about enslaved cheap labour in China producing goods appreciated in the west for their low cost. Recent notable example being forced labour in the processing of polysilicon used in solar panels (possibly including my own made in China 'Trina' panels). https://www.shu.ac.uk/helena-kennedy-centre-international-justice/research-and-projects/all-projects/forced-labour-lab

(company by company assessment in the linked report, my Trina panels assessed as 'very high' likelihood of exposure to forced labour).

 

[Durbs]

Considering how we talk about slavery now and how that relates to present day racism etc I'm most struck by how we seem to have airbrushed out the extent to which white Northern Europeans were themselves captured as slaves...

Of note, there's a movement (if that's the right word) to stop using the term "slave", and rather "enslaved person" - in keeping with the thread, calling someone a "slave" ties it to their person, rather than having something awful done to them.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

Considering how we talk about slavery now and how that relates to present day racism etc I'm most struck by how we seem to have airbrushed out the extent to which white Northern Europeans were themselves captured as slaves throughout much of history including relatively recently. It is as though we want the narrative to be that white brits were always top dogs, nasty but always on top. In reality before the Romans invaded, we were capturing one another to sell to the Romans as slaves. Then Vikings captured people from UK en-mass to export as slaves as far afield as central Asia, then Barbary Pirates captured British people to export as slaves to North Africa. That overlapped with the trans-Atlantic slave trade. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_pirates

I wonder whether telling history as it is might help to deflate white-supremacist nonsense.

It is still a thing. Far too many young girls find themselves trafficked (I imagine there are boys, too) for a start.That we gloss over it by not referring to it as simply “slavery” is a good example of the use of language to “change” our perceptions. I’m irked by the term “Modern Slavery”, as if it’s more progressive and less serious, simply because it’s illegal and largely hidden.

Edit:
Posts crossed. Pete, there’s a high probability of someone/people, living in slavery, within a few miles of where you are sitting to read this.
Oh, and the US jail system? That looks pretty damn similar from a certain perspective..

 

[petejh]

Pete, there’s a high probability of someone/people, living in slavery, within a few miles of where you are sitting to read this.

Aware. Although they aren't involved in manufacturing our solar panels, clothing, consumer tech or car components. Using cheap coal-generated power. Such a thing as scale.

 

[Nails]

I think the intention of the use of the term "Modern Slavery" is to clarify that it's happening in the present (as many people tend to assume that "Slavery" is something that only occurred in the past). I think "Modern Slavery" is also supposed to be a broader definition that includes more subtle forms of effective enslavement such as tricking people in to inescapable debt, or the threat of deportation, or forced marriage. I think it shows the limitations of attempting to control meaning and narrative simply by adjusting terminology.

 

[stone]

We don't just enslave by way of Chinese solar panels. UK agriculture via the LWA scheme makes use of workers who get tricked into debt to pay extortionate broker fees:
https://landworkersalliance.org.uk/lwa-report-digs-into-exploitation-of-migrant-workers-in-uk-horticulture/

workers have to contend with the fact they will be spending the entirety of their time in the UK working off debt, essentially receiving less than nothing for their time and labour. Recuperating money, aiming to minimise losses rather than earning as promised: this is the best-case scenario for many workers [quote/]

 

[cowboyhat]

I hate being referred to as a climber. Genuinely.

Why do you think that is? I'm inclined to agree, and I think that's from my own perception of the general climbing population, of which I feel I share minimal values with (and yet, I would probably fit into most other people's perception of what a climber is). I might tell people that I climb, but not that I am a climber.

I think that broadly, referring to people in a reductionist attitude (climber, patient, etc.) is not necessarily harmful in and of itself, but it is the changed perceptions that come with it. In clinical settings, making someone's social identity solely concentrated on their diagnosis will allow others to make disconnections with those people through an absence of shared values and not identifying with those groups of people. In a sense of, "I don't have this diagnosis, so we are different to each other".

For some reason I kept thinking about this comment, perhaps because it jarred;

the only thing i can say with any confidence, no self consciousness, is that I am a climber.

I can't be concerned with whether or not someone else's perception of a climber is correct. If not that then, what? What are you/ we..? And what is wrong with this label?

I do agree with the point there M1V0 about being lumped in; I ride a bicycle everyday to work or the wall because its cheap and quick, but Geraint Thomas is a cyclist. With cycling in London it does have a peculiar sensitivity because most people ride a bike to work because its cheap and quick, and the tube is minging etc. Not because they're hoping to arrive in Paris on the 23rd of July, or because they want to reclaim the streets and get on an environment high horse about 'motorists', ie; other people who are also merely trying to get to work. But you can easily over complicate things or be reluctant to take ownership of them because of this baggage, hence this thought was formed when I was young so its unencumbered:

Deep within me, it is the only thing. I am a rock climber, and these are my people.

 

[Ged]

I didn't ask you to be concerned with my perception of a climber. I just said I hate being referred to as one. Largely because, especially in more recent years, I often find I don't have that much in Common with a lot of "climbers".

Or were you replying to M1v0? I which case I'll shut up.

 

[M1V0]

Deep within me, it is the only thing. I am a rock climber, and these are my people.

That's nice. I'm glad that being a climber resonates with you so strongly

 

[abarro81]

I'm like Cowboyhat, if I'm anything then I'm a climber

 

[spidermonkey09]

I didn't ask you to be concerned with my perception of a climber. I just said I hate being referred to as one. Largely because, especially in more recent years, I often find I don't have that much in Common with a lot of "climbers".

Or were you replying to M1v0? I which case I'll shut up.

Out of interest what is it you object to/feel you don't have in common with "climbers"? I would still happily call myself a climber even though I think lots of stuff in modern climbing is bullshit, as I'm sure do loads of people, so i guess you must feel quite disenfranchised which is a shame.

 

[Bradders]

I'm like Cowboyhat, if I'm anything then I'm a climber

Agreed. In fact for me it's more of a suit of armour than a label. And I wear it proudly. Very strange to hear others are so estranged from it.

 

[yetix]

Echoing cowboy hat barrows and bradders

 

[Ged]

I didn't ask you to be concerned with my perception of a climber. I just said I hate being referred to as one. Largely because, especially in more recent years, I often find I don't have that much in Common with a lot of "climbers".

Or were you replying to M1v0? I which case I'll shut up.

Out of interest what is it you object to/feel you don't have in common with "climbers"? I would still happily call myself a climber even though I think lots of stuff in modern climbing is bullshit, as I'm sure do loads of people, so i guess you must feel quite disenfranchised which is a shame.

I'm not really sure. Maybe it's meeting a few too many people that irritated me at crags over the years. Or maybe it's just a simple feeling of being more than just about climbing. I'm also a husband, a dad, a runner, a teacher, a member of the community I live in. I think I probably feel that all of those things define me.

But I've honestly never really thought about it so that might be bs.

 

[SA Chris]

"The Power of Climbing, it's enormous! It dictates my entire existence"