Multipitch stuff: What's in your bag (of tricks)?

[Paul B]

Speaking of, I am tempted by the Nano traxion, as it is even lighter than the Micro, and it doesn't have the stupid button that opens up the teeth. The drawback is the slightly smaller wheel, so a bit less efficient. Thoughts? (Other than that I appear to have more money than sense...)

The rope soloing FB group has a method of disabling that button if you're so inclined. We used a local quarry to get fit for a trip with a fixed line and soloing on a micro-traxion that I was sending back down the rope as I topped out. The button got knocked a few times and engaged the cam which wasn't ideal; people have the opposite fear that it'll get knocked and disengage. The Edelrid Spoc uses a cable instead of the button and is preferred on that group for the same reason (the cost doesn't look much different to the Nano-Traxion though). I can't see the Nano being problematic for hauling a bag; I used the micro as a progress capture device on a 2:1 setup (where it isn't really doing any work) but later, when things were lighter in a 1:1 scenario / space hauling and it was fine/great.

Out of necessity in the Verdon one year we used a single and a skinny half as a haul/tag and I can remember it all feeling heavy. This was a few years ago now and I don't think my half was as skinny as they were now (although I settled for a slightly thicker pair when I replaced them semi-recently).

 

[Johnny Brown]

The only point of climbing with a thin tag-line is that it works as a haul line so you do not have to climb with a back pack. It is a lot harder to follow a vertical limestone pitch climbing with a light back pack than to lead the same pitch without.

Ah that makes sense. I'm trying to remember if I've ever done a multi-pitch sport route; if I have it was very easy. I suppose the Vertigine on Brento counts?

I remember a long discussion with one of Petzl's tech guys back in 2000, in their test facility, where across the language barrier I was trying to explain my concerns that the prototype Reverso I'd been testing would not allow me to lower the second. Thankfully DMM solved the issue very elegantly with the Pivot. It is a lot heavier than the Reversino I did a lot of long routes with, but the modern ab control plus lowering is worth the weight. I doubt I'd use a Micro-trax unless with a very trustworthy partner on slabby/ easy ground.

I will order a Nano and report back. Petzl claim the same efficiency as the Micro - 91%.

 

[jwi]

I suppose the Vertigine on Brento counts?

At least the second half

 

[SamT]

Slight aside, but several people have died in caves where they've been belayed up a wire ladder or some such using a micro trax, and have become stuck for whatever reason (exhaustion, or entanglement etc) then been unable to be lowered nor ascend.
(usually cold water is involved). The belayers should have had, but did not have the skills to unweight the mircro trax and swap over to a lowering device.

 

[andy moles]

Slight aside, but several people have died in caves where they've been belayed up a wire ladder or some such using a micro trax, and have become stuck for whatever reason (exhaustion, or entanglement etc) then been unable to be lowered nor ascend.
(usually cold water is involved). The belayers should have had, but did not have the skills to unweight the mircro trax and swap over to a lowering device.

Grim. I can imagine that even if you do know conventionally how to unweight the traxion, it could be hard to do if the person on the other end is pinned tight against a roof or something. If you couldn't hoist them enough to release the cam, you'd have little option but to bypass to another capture device on the live rope then cut the rope between the two, right? :-\

 

[Paul B]

Thankfully DMM solved the issue very elegantly with the Pivot.

Am I correct in that the Pivot works the same way as the Reverso (iv) for lowering, just with more modulation/control because of the pivot?

 

[SamT]

you'd have little option but to bypass to another capture device on the live rope then cut the rope between the two, right? :-\

Yep, something like that, every situation will be different.. you remembered your knife right?!

 

[Johnny Brown]

Am I correct in that the Pivot works the same way as the Reverso (iv) for lowering, just with more modulation/control because of the pivot?

Yeah. I find the reduction in effort required significant too though, which aids control further, plus it is (from memory intentionally) compatible with their nut key which gives a much longer control lever than a krab. Your second probably has that though.

I've very rarely used it in anger but years' experience teaching rescue has taught me the value of having flexible tools. The moment you land in the shit is not the time you want to be cobbling together some complex escape.

 

[jwi]

Also petzl should produce a super light titanium grigri.

Oh yes, sign me up... (Alas, I suspect that the properties of high quality steel is what make them so good).

We know from experience that it is very hard to hold even a medium hard fall by a much heavier climber on a skinny single using a reverso when you are tied in to a belay and not free to be pulled up. I am more than a little bit sceptical about my climbing partner's ability to hold a big fall close to the belay on a single strand of a half rope.

There is apparently some new evidence that it is in practice very hard to hold falls on thin half ropes clipped into every other screw in ice climbing scenarios, unless using break assistance devices.

 

[Johnny Brown]

Guessing you have tried a few devices? At least the modern ones are better?

One more reason not to fall off when ice climbing!

 

[mde]

Ropes: I climb on doubles unless we haul the bag, which we usually only do in multipitch "sport climbing mode", or if it is seriously hard and steep climbing. Else, the follower carries a small pack or we have a bit of drinks & food on the body/harness. I'm not a fan of radlines. If climbing on a single, I always use an older (thin) half rope as a tag line.

Device for belaying 2nd: never done that with a micro traxion, I personally wouldn't want to be belayed like that on anything that isn't simul-climbing terrain. A plate like linked to above is much more convenient than using an ATC in guide mode or (even worse) the Megajul. As a team, (when climbing with doubles), we usually carry 2 plates and one Megajul. Bit of added weight, but less faff/more efficient at the belays.

Device for belaying 1st: I don't feel safe if not belayed with an assisted device - neither when sport climbing, even less so on multipitches (where the leader can be out of sight, the belayer is often distracted by other tasks, rock fall, risk of hitting the belayer in a fall, ...). Hence we use a Grigri if in "sport climbing mode", resp. the Megajul in "onsight mode" or when climbing on doubles. The downside of an assisted device is that it's more difficult to give soft catches, especially from hanging belays... use the sensor hand an an appropriately long lanyard.

 

[SA Chris]

I'm trying to remember if I've ever done a multi-pitch sport route; if I have it was very easy.

You must have been to Verdon??

 

[jwi]

For most routes in Verdon, twins make perfect sense. There are not that many free routes that start at the bottom, and those are rarely more than just above 200 m long. On the longer routes I find it very convenient to haul if I think I would spend more than five hours on the route, otherwise I do not bother.

 

[Johnny Brown]

I'm trying to remember if I've ever done a multi-pitch sport route; if I have it was very easy.

You must have been to Verdon??

Sadly not. I’ve done very few single pitch sport routes in Europe either, just the odd rest day on alpine trips. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever clipped a bolt on European limestone.

 

[jwi]

You could easily spend a week in Verdon without clipping many bolts, except on the belays. Bottes-Surbottes, ULA, La Demande, Estamporanée, etc...

 

[SA Chris]

In fact I don’t think I’ve ever clipped a bolt on European limestone.

Unprecedented in the modern game.

 

[petejh]

There is apparently some new evidence that it is in practice very hard to hold falls on thin half ropes clipped into every other screw in ice climbing scenarios, unless using break assistance devices.

I can well believe this.

Two winters ago I was leading a mixed pitch in Adelboden in Switzerland. The route was traddy so we were climbing on 2 ropes - a skinny sport rope and a beal iceline 8.1mm (aka bungee cord). I had the ropes alternately clipped. Just as I reached the belay ledge my tools popped and I fell. There was a bolt about a metre below my feet. So it was a surprise when I went two-thirds down the length of the 20+m pitch. Icelines are the 'psychological protection only' of the rope world..

 

[Johnny Brown]

:lol: I’ve climbed on almost nothing but Icelines, summer and winter, for nearly twenty years. Although I recently upgraded my winter ropes to Beal Gullys :'( still waiting for a chance to use them four years later.

 

[andy moles]

:lol: I’ve climbed on almost nothing but Icelines, summer and winter, for nearly twenty years.

Do you have some reassuring tales of falling on them and not going miles? I'm on the brink of buying a new pair of 8.0mm half/twins, which will probably mainly be used as halfs, which is skinnier than I've gone before, and I do fall off sometimes...

 

[Fultonius]

I'd just scraped my way up one of the hardest winter pitches I'd lead, in spantiks, at 3300m on the Dru Couloir Direct. Past all the hard climbing and just moving out left to the belay on slightly shooogly hooks, one of my crampons skittered and I was off. I was around 2m above a sling but went 10-12m, pinballing off the sides of the couloir. We weren't on icelines, but maybe 8mm half's if my memory serves.

Fortunate just to have a few bruises, and very glad the next (crux) pitch was G's lead! I think that was all on stretch rather than any slippage. I don't like climbing on icelines, summer or winter. They just don't inspire enough confidence. I'm also 80kg so the weight penalty of a few gramms of rope vs the psychological penalty of fear of the skinny means I stick with thicker ropes....

That said, we had way too chunky a single rope for the bugs last year and damn that was hard work belaying on a reverso....