Mostly Peak [various crags, mostly grit][57 probs, up to 8A+]

[Bonjoy]

Sorry Simon, I realised I'd accidentally split your post out into the other thread, but couldn't figure how to then splice it back in where it came from.

 

[Bonjoy]

I did wonder who'd part clean the Smiling Moon block. Did you also do some cleaning on the roadside stuff? The top half of Elephants Gerald looked to have been tried and there's a still to be climbed project 5m right of Lionel Reachy that someone else has cleaned up.

 

[Andy B]

I cleaned the overhanging crack right of Lionel Reachy. I was intending to climb it as a route, as the gear is good and the landing is poor. Unfortunately I stuck my leg down a hole and tore my MCL immediately after brushing it. The slab/wall to the right of the crack was already cleaned with traces of chalk on it.

 

[user 1679]

The new roadside aretes at Froggatt look great. I'll have to go back with more pads and a spotter as they certainly aren't lowball! There was a lot of chalk on them so I assume they've had some ascents over the past couple of days.

I consoled myself with a very sweary ascent of Love Thy Kneebar just before snow rendered it unclimbable. It packs a lot into a few moves.

 

[Bonjoy]

Nice one! You find the crucial knee placement?
Yeah, the roadside aretes saw some attention this week, and Isla Grace too.

 

[AndiT]

I realise that you put a NOTE regarding keeping Grinah Stones undocumented, the same has always applied to the First Cloud too where you've claimed Cloud Nein etc. Is nothing sacred?

 

[Bonjoy]

I'm much more inclined to go along with the Grinah thing (hence asking for opinions and not having written anything up to date). The Clouds one on the other hand seems a lot more unjustifiable and pointless. What exactly is the rationale? My guess was that it was mostly about the slabby buttress left of the low roof. Which has some nice easier bits on it and a very cool project which ought to be recorded when it gets done.

 

[Bonjoy]

PS I'm not bothered about the roofs being credited to me, or having the names I suggested. I just think they're decent and worth recording.

 

[AndiT]

So because you think it's "unjustifiable and pointless" then you'll just go ahead with it? Good to see that the echo chamber of UKB is still alive an well.

 

[Fiend]

I don't think anyone is actually echoing Bonjoy yet. But my faint reverberation is that Grinah is an entire area miles from any other documented venues and it's location fits an exploratory wilderness experience, whilst First Cloud is a few minutes from the most well-used venue in Staffordshire and right next to buttresses that are fully documented.

But don't take it lying down (unless there's a lying down start?!), I'm sure there's a good counter-case to be made.

 

[user 1679]

Nice one! You find the crucial knee placement?

I assume so, but I'm not much of a kneebar-er so may just have lucked my way through. I had to use two different right knee positions, one for going up the arete from the starting holds and one for getting the crucial (for me anyway) dimple for my right hand. My little legs didn't fit the first kneebar very well so I had the kneepad almost on my knee. This made the move to the top harder as I couldn't bend my right leg enough to get my right foot up!

 

[Bonjoy]

So because you think it's "unjustifiable and pointless" then you'll just go ahead with it? Good to see that the echo chamber of UKB is still alive an well.

I didn't consult UKB. Didn't feel it was needed, any more than asking permission off anyone else.

 

[AndiT]

Nothing has ever been recorded or documented on the first cloud. It's nice to know that some places aren't categorised, labelled and recorded like some fossil collection. For at least forty years this had been the case, quite nice I always thought, there was this piece of rock which you could just go to and just enjoy for the sake without some predetermined line or claim. We could've put it in the last guidebook, but thought continuing the tradition was a good and positive thing. The same applied to the rocks between Roach End and the Skyline. There's some really great stuff up there, only five minutes from the road, but it's always been left out.

I just don't understand why you thought that you should just change that?

 

[Bonjoy]

I like fossil collections, I'm a fossil collector.
All undocumented problems have a long history of being undocumented. It's not a good enough reason to stay that way.
It might annoy the odd local but a few more people will enjoy that bit of rock and I'm unconvinced that these problems will degrade anyone else's day at the crag in the process. I think there should be a very good reason before we try to impose arbitrary gatekeeper decisions on others and in this case I'm sufficiently unimpressed with the reasons behind them to ignore.
I have climbed on the rocks beyond very far skyline. I never recorded anything, except for Ursa Major which is virtually roadside.

 

[AndiT]

Ok, so you've made a decision based on your own decision. Whereas you could've just left those two problems out (along with their sarcastic names), and climbers could've still just as easily gone and enjoyed discovering those problems for themselves. You'd still have your hoard of other problems and we'd still have a little place that remains seemingly untainted. I'm sorry Jon, but you are completely wrong in this case and entirely selfish; yet proposing that you've actually done something for the enjoyment of others. I

Instead of adding something for climbers to enjoy, you've actually taken something away.

 

[Bonjoy]

A decision based on my own judgement as opposed to what someone (you?) told me to do in a book, is a fairer description. Apologies for the names. That was my way of acknowledging that I was aware of the embargo but didn't feel bound by it. A bit childish perhaps, sorry.
Is the mud slinging necessary? I think you'd make a better case for your point of view by sticking to reasoned arguments for why people/I should do what you want.
Believe it or not I do a lot of things that I don't write up, including various things on the areas you've referred to. I don't write things up when there's a good reason not to. I didn't and don't see any reason here.

 

[AndiT]

Firstly, it wasn't a decision made by me, but it was one I supported in this special case. You might notice that I've not been on UKB for years, the reason I'm on it now is because this was raised with me, so don't think it's just me, it's a case which has been highlighted.

Secondly, the problems have been climbed before. But obviously it's a catch 22 for anyone to come forward. But, ultimately it has been somewhere which people have climbed on for decades but have all managed to keep our egos in check when coming to "claim" things.

Had I happened to be walking past when you were climbing there, I would've happily joined in. I think people should climb there, it's an ok piece of rock, I just don't see the need for every last buttress and boulder to be named, graded and rated.

If the only reason people go to climb on the First Cloud is because you've named some problems then surely the same argument could be applied that the only reason some people go and climb on the First Cloud is because there aren't any named problems on it.

Just think, there are other people out there who, just like you, get a great satisfaction from feeling they're the first to do something.

 

[Teaboy]

I don’t understand the argument here. Who are these people? Obviously not you or your mystery informant as you know exactly what has and hasn’t been climbed. So are we talking about people who happen to stumble upon the place and then get told subsequently that anything they climbed has been done before. Or is the expectation that people will know the rules and go along to kid themselves they are the first to climb the clean and brushed problems they find?

 

[Bonjoy]

Look, ultimately if this is a big thing for you I can delete these from the update. Or is it too late for that, let me know. If it bothers you, that bothers me. You could have achieved this end with a PM and without the digs at my character and motivation by the way.
It's fairly irrelevant to me whether these have been done before. I'd assumed they would have been done in some form, though both required eliminate rules to work IMO, which is part of why documenting makes sense as not all climbers are good at reading stuff like that. They are nice and worth doing, by people other than 'in the know' locals. Your barbs about 'ego' and 'claim' would be valid for other lines, but not in this instance. These are two pleasant eliminates I documented because that's what I do (I could write a long post about why there's more to this than ego, maybe another time). They aren't important bits of my 'hoard', I would not feel diminished by their absence, I just think less people (lets face it, whatever happens they will always be obscure) will enjoy them without documentation.

PS - If I ever climb the central hanging slab on the block to the left I will definitely claim that. That really would feed my ego and be a jewelled crown in the hoard. Sadly I think it might be too bold for me.

 

[Bonjoy]

Just think, there are other people out there who, just like you, get a great satisfaction from feeling they're the first to do something.

There are absolutely loads of unclimbed lines in the Peak, especially in Staffs. There really is no need to simulate the feeling of doing something new in this way. Learn to find the gaps and go and do something actually new :shrug:.