Doylo said:
It's not that complicated. Less people are having a trad apprenticeship now as they're distracted with sport and bouldering, indoor walls and all this training business
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Stu Littlefair said:
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As a result, if you measure impressiveness by the number of people doing it on a regular basis, then regularly on sighting E6 is equivalent to 8c+ redpoints in my book. But cooler.
That's because you've climbed 9a but are relatively crap at trad. The numbers are down because of the reasons I stated above not because it's the equivalent of climbing 8c+. For someone who's good at trad like Pete Robins onsighting e6 is a rest day whereas climbing 8c+ is a summers worth of stress and effort (and earache off his wife).
Exactly this. It isn't complicated, you get good at what you do. There's no magic to being good at trad; or at sport, bouldering, alpine, mixed climbing etc. It's just time spent doing it.
My apprenticeship between roughly age 19-25 was probably similar to lots of others in the 90s/early noughties. Climbing 51% of the S, HS, VS, HVS, E1s, E2s and E3s in the N.Wales select guide (just counted - 212 out of 413 routes), all of them onsight except for 4 routes (pincushion, valour and tensor - all at trem!; and plumbline).
I didn't climb a sport route until I'd been climbing for around 4 years and I remember walking under LPT in my early twenties believing that grade 7s seemed an exotic world of advanced climbing and 8s a different planet (or Moon) entirely - one that I'd surely never visit.
Then I got into sport and got better at that. With having had a trad apprenticeship it wasn't hard to keep going with that as well and still progress with it, although more slowly.
It's so different now. People can easily go straight to sport climbing outdoors and onto 7s in their first year because there's a good choice of 5s and 6s to progress through, the climbs are a known quantity and are generally well bolted (you're welcome).The trad is still there for those who want to go tradding; the ones who want 'adventureTM' still can - and now with the added boost of having easily-acquired sport fitness; and the ones who want an easy/quick option now can in most parts of the country, even Scotland (soon NI hopefully). The ones who want to willy wave about what they climb still can and do.
For most people time is in limited supply as they age, but also it seems youth today are more economically pressured than when I was 20. Everyone now has the option of sport, so they don't *have* to go tradding if they want to climb. It doesn't surprise me that lots of people opt for the time-limited 'easy' option - that's people, path of least resistance generally.
I don't get the impression trad is dying off - the level has risen and it seems like loads of people are still going out every weekend serving apprenticeship on E1s and above, rather than VS and above which was the norm 20 years ago.
It seems to me the people who get good at onsighting trad these days usually to be either young people with testosterone to burn trying to prove/establish themselves in some way; broke people with lots of time living close to good trad - i.e. students; people from privileged backgrounds with resources to travel lots and not work; or middle-aged 'live to climb' lifestylers (most with financial safety nets). Caff's a bit of an anomaly. And to continue tradding at a high level you probably need to choose to live very close to good trad ahead of choosing to live where decent work or a relationship might take you. Few people are prepared to make that sacrifice long term.
[quote author=stulittlefair] As a result, if you measure impressiveness by the number of people doing it on a regular basis, then regularly on sighting E6 is equivalent to 8c+ redpoints in my book[/quote]
I think (?) I know what you're trying to say, that in terms of number of people doing E6 os or 8c+ rp the numbers are similar? Because no way are they anywhere near comparable in terms of difficulty for a climber who regularly climbs both grade 8 sport and E5 trad.
If the numbers *are* close (which I doubt) than it'd just be because of circumstances and fashion than inherent difficulty. But I doubt that the numbers are even close. I reckon loads more people are onsighting E6 than rp'ing 8c+ - it isn't *that* rare despite what Caff's blog implies. I'd be surprised if the ratio of E6 onsights to 8c+ rp's per year is any closer than 10:1. Relatively few people are climbing 8c+ in the UK - and how many 8c+s has Caff redpointed this year (and previous years) compared to E6 onsights?
Trad is ace but I don't think it's any cooler or less cool than sport. A great trad route is great and a poor one is poor. There are far too many trad routes that are poor climbs; crap eliminates; and compromises littered with rusty fixed gear for trad to be blanket 'cool'. Just as there are crap, average and great sport routes.
The moves on Liquid Ambar or The Brute! But Rainbow of recalcitrance is an amazing visual feature. Apples to oranges. Nothing's cooler to me than the climbing on a good steep mixed route though.