Historical Nuggets

[andy popp]

Interested in people's opinions on first ascent details as it seems like there's some convention involved.

I'd read FA details like "FA. A.Sharp, P.Lewis 15/Aug/1986" (from Beat Surrender at Mother Careys area) as meaning A. Sharp (Andy?) led it, with a belay from P.Lewis (Paul?). Potentially there was some joint cleaning effort, and potentially P.Lewis may have also led or seconded it, but definitely not guaranteed.

If it was a multipitch I'd assume that would normally mean anyone mentioned in the FA details did some leading, but the exact 'contribution' to the FA would depend a bit on the route i.e. if you lead the VS intro pitches then hand over to your mate to lead the E8 pitch then it'd be fair to say your mate had done the bulk of it.

In the first example, I would certainly have always assumed Lewis had seconded the route - that was the convention in the past anyway. You wouldn't have typically expected to be listed on a first ascent just for belaying duties (always exceptions of course, Nick Dixon used to sometimes list anyone vaguely involved: non-climbing wives, children, dogs, people not at the crag on the day, random passersby etc.). As I said, those were the conventions in the past.

On the other hand I would definitely never have assumed someone listed on a multipitch FA had done some some/any of the leading. Even if you only second you're still very much part of the first ascent team. A decent first ascent listing should detail who led what (on a multipitch) though.

 

[Tony S]

that was the convention in the past anyway. You wouldn't have typically expected to be listed on a first ascent just for belaying duties (always exceptions of course, … . As I said, those were the conventions in the past.

I do agree this was the most common stance. Though I’m not sure “convention” is justified. I’m unconvinced how consistent this understanding was across time and geography.

A decent first ascent listing should detail who led what (on a multipitch) though.

Really? I have seldom seen such a break down in a first ascent listing. Occasionally in a journal article detailing the ascent I have seen such comprehensive details but that’s it. Perhaps for a Peak 2 pitch route it could be fair to interpret the order of names but I doubt even that is secure.

 

[Johnny Brown]

Joe Brown's ascent of Cemetery Waits E7 in 1995

What’s the issue with this?

 

[SamT]

I think Remus is saying that whilst there can be confusion around monikers like B. Smith.. putting the full name doesn't necessarily solve the problem entirely (in that some confusion could arise around Joe brown climbing E7 in 1995.. "What the Joe brown.. that must be a typo".)

 

[remus]

Joe Brown's ascent of Cemetery Waits E7 in 1995

What’s the issue with this?

As Sam said, just the potential for confusion when two people have the same name. Usually possible to work out what's what with a little local knowledge, but ideally these details would be unambiguous.

 

[SA Chris]

I'd read FA details like "FA. A.Sharp, P.Lewis 15/Aug/1986" (from Beat Surrender at Mother Careys area) as meaning A. Sharp (Andy?) led it, with a belay from P.Lewis (Paul?). Potentially there was some joint cleaning effort, and potentially P.Lewis may have also led or seconded it, but definitely not guaranteed.

"Both led" in brackets used to get used if this was the case, but don't see it much anymore.

 

[remus]

Sid Perou sadly passed away yesterday, but in doing a little research I stumbled on his youtube channel which has some gems on it https://www.youtube.com/@Cavingcameraman/videos

 

[remus]

Grimer's latest pod with Gresham is a good listen. Some interesting/harrowing stuff about his ascent of Indian Face.

Part 1: https://niallgrimes.libsyn.com/jcpc-156-neil-gresham-part-1
Part 2, including the Indian Face stuff: https://niallgrimes.libsyn.com/jcpc-157-neil-gresham-part-2

 

[remus]

Noticed that Ian Carr has a logbook on UKC which makes for some fun reading. As well as some notable ascents himself he also partnered Dougie Hall on a lot of hard trad in the 80s. For example there's a nice little write up of a very impressive onsight burn on Strawberries at tremadog:

Held Dougie’s ropes on this. The famous creaky green single 9mm. On the flash he went for it from gear about 1/2 way up. Only to slip off the final move, ending up at or below me.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=12859&sort=g&country=&crag=&gradetype=2&partner=&year=&season=&newfilter=1&nresults=100&pg=1

 

[remus]

Did Malc repeat Progress at Kilnsey? Gav Ellis has got some great pics of him on it and I feel like I heard about him doing it, but was wandering if anyone could remember for sure?

And bonus question: what's the deal with the hold loss on it? The UKC description says "it lost holds and got a bit harder than it's original 8c", but would be interested to know roughly what changed and when.

 

[Kingy]

Hi Remus
Yes, Malc did Progress in the summer of 1995, the mags confirm this (I don't have any in my collection but I'm sure High or OTE will have it reported).

Regarding holds changing, there are 2 key holds that have altered a bit since the FA in 95. Firstly the crux sidepull/ pod between the second and third bolt for your left hand has got smaller due to it crumbling. Apparently it used to be significantly bigger. Secondly the slopey pod for your right hand used to have more of a lip on it in the 90's and this broke off making this bit harder. Its the redpoint crux now - this broke agin majorly last summer but was repaired back to its former state as the piece that broke was retained and put back exactly how it used to be.

Thirdly, there were some holds between the 6th and 7th bolt that broke about 8 or 9 years ago but a repair was done to a key crimp so this section is about the same as what it used to be (the old holds can be seen in the Chris Savage video or the Malc pics).

I understand that this year the jug by the kneebar rest higher up has crumbled plus some other sika has decayed (not sure where) but I don't have any knowledge of this as haven't been up there to look

 

[haydn jones]

Yeah I broke the jug off by the high knee bar. Also quite a large chunk of the knee bar shattered off, enough that I really struggle to make the knee work now. I don't think it changes the grade. It just means it's a slightly worse shake out

 

[remus]

Top knowledge Ted, I was hoping you might see the post as I'd have put money on you knowing all the answers! Thanks for the update on the knee bar too Haydn :strongbench:

 

[Kingy]

Nic Sellers has done Progress. He was working it with Tony Mitchell in 95 prior to the FA but both got smoked by Jerry. Nic took 16 days. Jerry took 4 days (would have been 2 if he hadn't fallen off the top roof due to not working it enough). Details of Jerry's ascent are in High Magazine's excellent Rock Notes report from 1995 plus Keith's pics of Jerry. I understand Tony didn't do it sadly as he was shut down by a massive reach in the top roof and got there twice from the ground. I believe Steve McClure has done it but not sure where that would be referenced, I'm sure he would confirm.

Regarding the grade, I'm not totally convinced it went up from 8c to 8c+ just due to the crux hold by the 3rd and the pod by the 6th crumbling. Yes these holds have deteriorated but I don't think they were that much better in 1995 to automatically make the route 8c. Take a look at the pod sidepull hold Malc is holding with his right hand in the first pic on Climbing History, it looks pretty much the same as now.

I think the downgrade to 8c from Jerry's initial 8c+ was a lot to do with the culture of downgrading at that time. For example, Evolution getting downgraded to 8c by Nic from Jerry's 8c+ and that is now regarded as 8c+. Also, 42 being downgraded to 8b due to Nic's near flash. Probably a similar thing happened with Progress. With the passage of time, we can now look at these ascents as representing a peak of UK sport climbing in the mid 90's - compared to some routes graded 8c in Europe today, there is a good chance both were 8c+!

 

[haydn jones]

June 2006 Steve did it pretty sure

 

[bendavison]

Regarding the grade, I'm not totally convinced it went up from 8c to 8c+ just due to the crux hold by the 3rd and the pod by the 6th crumbling. Yes these holds have deteriorated but I don't think they were that much better in 1995 to automatically make the route 8c.

I think the downgrade to 8c from Jerry's initial 8c+ was a lot to do with the culture of downgrading at that time. For example, Evolution getting downgraded to 8c by Nic from Jerry's 8c+ and that is now regarded as 8c+. Also, 42 being downgraded to 8b due to Nic's near flash. Probably a similar thing happened with Progress.

Could the potential upgrade of Progress and downgrade of Evolution just be from Nic's experience on them and personal feeling of the grades? He did Evolution incredibly quickly, and seemed to find Progress harder, so it seems reasonable that he might have thought the grades were the wrong way round. If that's the case, I don't know the circumstances by which his feelings re the grades became wrote.

 

[Kingy]

Regarding the grade, I'm not totally convinced it went up from 8c to 8c+ just due to the crux hold by the 3rd and the pod by the 6th crumbling. Yes these holds have deteriorated but I don't think they were that much better in 1995 to automatically make the route 8c.

I think the downgrade to 8c from Jerry's initial 8c+ was a lot to do with the culture of downgrading at that time. For example, Evolution getting downgraded to 8c by Nic from Jerry's 8c+ and that is now regarded as 8c+. Also, 42 being downgraded to 8b due to Nic's near flash. Probably a similar thing happened with Progress.

Could the potential upgrade of Progress and downgrade of Evolution just be from Nic's experience on them and personal feeling of the grades? He did Evolution incredibly quickly, and seemed to find Progress harder, so it seems reasonable that he might have thought the grades were the wrong way round. If that's the case, I don't know the circumstances by which his feelings re the grades became wrote.

Really interesting discussion. Yes thats a good point, these things can be very subjective. I know that Nic mentioned to me at Kilnsey that he found Progress a lot harder than Evolution. He did find a useful dropknee on Evolution which he attributed to helping him being able to send the route and led to him being described as 'bendy' in OTE. I've never managed to work out where this famous drop knee is.... :-\ The joys of routes before videos! I think Jerry must have been going through a purple patch at that time...

 

[remus]

Ted, currently I've got progress recorded as pre-break and post-break on climbing-history, do you think it's a useful distinction to make? Usually I do it when there's a substantial difference but it sounds like progress probably didn't change that much and the grade difference was more to do with some harsh downgrading.

Also how did it go down to 8c in the first place? It sounds like Jerry suggested 8c+ and Nic thought it hard/8c+ compared to Evolution. Was it Malc who suggested a downgrade? Can't imagine there were many other people lining up to repeat it at the time.

 

[Kingy]

Its a tricky point - I think hold deterioration rather than hold breakage is the best way of referring to it. The two key holds by the 3rd and 6th bolts I've mentioned (that have not been repaired to how they were in the 90's) are definitely a little worse but its now not possible to determine by how much they are worse. Therefore I don't think we can simply say that it was 8c then and its 8c+ now, I don't think its possible to neatly categorise it like that.

One of the other factors you mention was the fact that Nic did Jerry's routes and things were read into the grades. If you can procure copies of OTE and High from summer 1995 with the relevant articles rounding up limestone developments they mention this usefully. I think Jerry's interview in 'Men Grading Badly' in OTE from 1995 (the one with Ben Moon commenting on grades) has some mention of it plus some pics of Jerry in black and white on Progress.

Yes that's right, IIRC Jerry proposed 8c+ for Evo, Nic did it quickly and downgraded it. Jerry did Progress and graded it 8c+ but after Evo went down to 8c he had doubts, especially as it only took him 4 days to do it. I think in his interview in OTE (and reflecting on Evo now being considered 8c) he says something along the lines of ....the bummer was I thought I was climbing better than I actually was so maybe I was wrong about the grade of Progress....'' In light of how long it took Nic to do Progress relative to Jerry and the fact that maybe Evo suited Nic perfectly, we can now see that perhaps Jerry was right all along in grading Progress 8c+ (even in spite of the hold deterioriation - perhaps it has gone from easy 8c+ in 1995 to now harder 8c+?). Doubtless Malc will have had an opinion on Progress when he repeated it shorty afterwards and of course he did Evo earlier that summer as well. Without asking Malc, we won't know his opinion!

Without researching the above articles, I don't think we can really make any pronouncements - all of the above factors are at play in combination. I hope this helps! I will try and dig out some of these articles and send them to you.

 

[andy popp]

Ted, a few posts before you mentioned a culture of downgrading. As an extremely peripheral participant on Peak lime in the 90s I remember that culture well - it was pretty much expected that everything would be downgraded.