First E7 onsight

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remus said:
grimer said:
History, like this, is such a hard-to-define thing. This thread is looking back through today's eyes (via grades ascribed in 2021) to the achievements of the past. I keep thinking that things didn't work the way we see them today.

Cave Arete Direct on Laddow from like 1920 gets 'The First E1', but it's short and above heather and I wouldn't be surprised if there were harder leads about at the time.

The Rasp, today, gets E2. Goliath, E4/5. Steve Bancroft once told me that, in his day, Goliath was just the nest thing you did after The Rasp. So in the 1970s they were much the same. Grades put Goliath close to White Wand, but they were decades apart, and rightly so.

Surely the important thing is what were the big leaps in the era in question. And I guess for that you have to ask Ando Popp and his contemporaries, people climbing around when the first E7 onsights / flashes or whatever were happening. What felt like the new thing?

Patch on Raped; Bransby on Impact Day; Leo on Masters; Steve Mac on Nightmayer; James on everything?

What are today's breakthroughs?

I think this is an excellent point. I've had a few goes at putting together 'first of the grade' lists on climbing-history.org but it always seems to work out strangely: if you just go by the numbers you end up with things that have recently been upgraded going in, whereas at the time they were clearly not such a big thing.

All complicated by changes in technology and style too. I can imagine The Rasp and Goliath feel fairly similar if you've not got a phat rack of cams dangling off your harness and some sport fitness from your recent kalymnos trip. I bet they weren't milking the kneebars on the rasp back in the day!

The 'first 9a+' is a good example of this, with the answer spanning 4 routes and 5 years depending on who you ask and which routes you retrospectively upgrade.


.."if you just go by the numbers you end up with things that have recently been upgraded going in, whereas at the time they were clearly not such a big thing".

That's the point I was making. I hadn't seen Grimer's very un-grimer like post above. ;D

But surely that's the context in which we're really asking the question. What ascents were breaking new ground from what had gone before?

A slightly different point, is that from a historical perspective it's also worth thinking about practices at the time - what was the norm - what would have been considered no great deal at the time.

Re not having a rack of massive cams on Goliath - and perhaps related to current practices at the time, a funny incident occurred with Dave Pegg on the route.
He'd made the trip out to Burbage before the rest of us, and when we arrived, we all waved back to Dave, who was waving to us from the edge. We dived into the quarry to muck about for a while. When we came out and started walking up to the edge, Dave was still waving and yelling, hugging the chockstone on Goliath, having tried to solo it. We found it very funny :lol: He was definitely milking the knee-bar.
 
On the subject of "ascents that were breaking new ground from what had gone before", when you did Terra Cotta, Dave, was it onsight?
 
On Sight: The First E7.

I hate the idea that if I’ve climbed one route on sight then I can’t claim to on sight any other route that shares any climbing with the former.

This is such an interesting topic with some great stories and it’s all those varied approaches and the honesty (dishonesty) of what went on that’s so engaging. Rather than trying to identify one ascent as the first perhaps someone should write this all up in a book for Vertabrate Publishing.
 
Wil said:
remus said:
When you did Terra Cotta, Dave, was it onsight?

Abseil inspected, but not as much as he might have wanted!

It's a funny thing isn't it, if you were to apply the strict definition you'd have to say that Dave had worked the route, but on the other hand it is one of the boldest pieces of climbing I know of, so out there you'd have to throw away the atlas and get out the star map!
 
Steve Crowe said:
Rather than trying to identify one ascent as the first perhaps someone should write this all up in a book for Vertabrate Publishing.

Documenting hard impressive ascents done in good style would make for good reading and include typical onsight disqualifiers such as shared starts, abseil inspection, minimal practice and some beta.
 
A sequel to Unjustifiable Risk?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/publications/other_publications/unjustifiable_risk_by_simon_thompson-2949
 
remus said:
Wil said:
remus said:
When you did Terra Cotta, Dave, was it onsight?

Abseil inspected, but not as much as he might have wanted!

It's a funny thing isn't it, if you were to apply the strict definition you'd have to say that Dave had worked the route, but on the other hand it is one of the boldest pieces of climbing I know of, so out there you'd have to throw away the atlas and get out the star map!

Weird things happen when you become familiar with some crags.
I'd been looking up from the cave with a view to just doing it as a lead anyway, but could tell from the ground that the large block on the lip could well be loose, so thought I'd better give it a look. I'd done Caveman a couple of times - btw, no one has soloed Caveman, as the hardest climbing is after the cool roof bit - and just thought the direct would be cool as a single pitch blast from Moonraker.

Abbed it, and knocked the block off, so wanted to see if it would still go, but just tried that one move - a completely stupid way, with weight on the rope, and thinking "That'll do". No aspirations of soloing it at that point, so wasn't sure where the large block beneath was.

Arrived with Frank Ramsey, and had already "joked" about soloing it. Got to the move on the lip, and realised it didn't climb as I thought. It may not be too bad - edit. It's probably easy, but just one of those "Oh flip" moments; biggish move - but I was just in commitment mode, and in a bit of a rush ;D
Would love to go back with someone to lead it if anyone fancies. Part of Caveman pitch two has fallen off, so needs re-climbing anyway.

I can't remember what it was, but something reminded me the other day of how close to binning it I'd been on Call to Arms a year or so later ;) :lol:

There were a lot of folk soloing stuff back then. It was just a different scene. Simon Nadin's solo of Menopause is the one I'd put out there. A real stand-out that.
 
DAVETHOMAS90 said:
remus said:
Wil said:
remus said:
When you did Terra Cotta, Dave, was it onsight?

Abseil inspected, but not as much as he might have wanted!

It's a funny thing isn't it, if you were to apply the strict definition you'd have to say that Dave had worked the route, but on the other hand it is one of the boldest pieces of climbing I know of, so out there you'd have to throw away the atlas and get out the star map!

Weird things happen when you become familiar with some crags.
I'd been looking up from the cave with a view to just doing it as a lead anyway, but could tell from the ground that the large block on the lip could well be loose, so thought I'd better give it a look. I'd done Caveman a couple of times - btw, no one has soloed Caveman, as the hardest climbing is after the cool roof bit - and just thought the direct would be cool as a single pitch blast from Moonraker.

Abbed it, and knocked the block off, so wanted to see if it would still go, but just tried that one move - a completely stupid way, with weight on the rope, and thinking "That'll do". No aspirations of soloing it at that point, so wasn't sure where the large block beneath was.

Arrived with Frank Ramsey, and had already "joked" about soloing it. Got to the move on the lip, and realised it didn't climb as I thought. It may not be too bad - edit. It's probably easy, but just one of those "Oh flip" moments; biggish move - but I was just in commitment mode, and in a bit of a rush ;D
Would love to go back with someone to lead it if anyone fancies. Part of Caveman pitch two has fallen off, so needs re-climbing anyway.

I can't remember what it was, but something reminded me the other day of how close to binning it I'd been on Call to Arms a year or so later ;) :lol:

There were a lot of folk soloing stuff back then. It was just a different scene. Simon Nadin's solo of Menopause is the one I'd put out there. A real stand-out that.

What fell off caveman Dave? And when? Pitch 2 as in the crux bit into the niche hanging belay?
 
Ged said:
What fell off caveman Dave? And when? Pitch 2 as in the crux bit into the niche hanging belay?

Hi Ged.
Part of the big red hanging flake, as you leave the niche. Would be cool if it requires a jump now! ;D

Go do it! And New Stone Age which is ace.

The Flaming Drambuie (direct) requires a bolt or two ;)

All of this is very off topic of course.
 
Some other early contenders are; Isis is angry, Birdy (cilan head though I can't remember what grade it was given at the time. Might have been hard XS or something like that), Hardback Thesaurus. All reported as onsight at the time though obviously included falls at least on Hardback. All FAs as well. And all from mid to late 80s I think. Also I'm pretty sure the Scoop was onsighted on the first few repeats and all ( including the crux )but the top pitch on the first ascent.

There could be some debate over the grades of some of these. Hardback being top end though. The most impressive piece of climbing I ever saw,, followed instantly by the least impressive bit of protecting of the second. I was not pleased by that as I had held the ***** ****s/visionary genius's ropes for several hours over a few days and I was keen to get an idea what it was all about but the fall for the second was potentially as dangerous as it was for him.
 
Was this because JD didn’t put any/much gear in the traverse on T-Rex? Or was it due to all the shit gear?

Has hardback been repeated?
 
cwaddy said:
Some other early contenders are...

I had held the ***** ****s/visionary genius's ropes for several hours over a few days and I was keen to get an idea what it was all about but the fall for the second was potentially as dangerous as it was for him.

Sorry, I can work out the second word, but still stuck on the first ;) Your solo of Dreadnought was impressively cool. There was a lot more of that sort of thing going on back then, wasn't there? Very Waddy ;D :wave:

Oh.. and I meant to ask, when was Enchanted repeated?
 
cwaddy said:
the fall for the second was potentially as dangerous as it was for him.

I don’t get why the route traverses left at that point. Wouldn’t it make more sense to belay up right at the top of T Rex pitch 1?
 
When he got to the T-rex traverse he decided on the spur of the moment to go left, thinking of finishing up golden bough, which may still have had a rest point, IIRC. But he didn't put any gear in the traverse so the second, (Bob Drury- I was watching from the promontory where Al Hughes was filming, but I was hoping to second it) was going to face an ever nastier 30ft swing into the corner of T rex. That's why I declined... But at least it wasn't near the top of the Ogre in a storm, a la Doug Scott.
 
Was that horrifying sound thing Come to Mother that JD and Paul Pritch done onsight and E7? Sounds properly harrowing that.

Did you ever onsight E7, Crispin?
 
andy popp said:
I believe Come to Mother was legitimately onsight.

May be difficult to confirm the grade these days :-\

Image-2021-12-09-174706.png
 

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