First E7 onsight

[Simon Lee]

I’d always thought it was Seb doing Snap Decision in 97 as at the time it was reported as the first.

Following a discussion on ukc I’ve been doing a bit of googling. Pollitt’s second ascent of the Bells is said to have been onsight here but I’d be surprised if it didn’t involve some pre-inspection, cleaning or beta from Redhead. Anybody know?

Also if Strawberries is E7 (surely!) then Stefan Glowacz’s onsight ascent in 1987 has to be a potential contender.

Any others?

To some extent this is evaluating the past through modern day spectacles as the strict understanding of onsight and it’s covetousness as a style didn’t really become a thing till the 90’s with sport climbing or at least that was my impression at the time. Certainly onsight and flashed were often confused (anyone remember the onsight flash?)

 

[Johnny Brown]

Certainly onsight and flashed were often confused (anyone remember the onsight flash?)

Potentially huge tangent, but they were crystal clear as explained to me in the nineties. Flash meaning simply first go, onisght meaning without beta. So 'onsight flash' makes perfect sense. It was only in the noughties that flash evolved (through confusion I think) to mean specifically a beta flash, and anything other than an onsight flash became dumped into groundup.

I'd be very surprised in Seb did the first in '97, they were becoming common in '99 when I did my first.

 

[teestub]

My money would have been on Jerry, just looking at Revelations, it has him down as onsight solo of Linden (E6) in ‘83 and then The Phoenix (13a so E6ish?) in ‘84. It looks like he just got psyched on sport and bouldering in the late ‘80’s though.

Think you dropped this JB

 

[Duncan campbell]

I can't find it anywhere now but I swear I read something about Dougie Hall doing one in very good style (whether it was a pure o/s i cant say) maybe up at Dove Crag? But tbh maybe that was on an E6 but the bir of writing as a whole was about the E7s.

Will Remus start making a list for this? Finally we are out of the redpoint lists and onto the good ones! (eh Mr Fiend!?) :lol:

 

[Steve R]

From a bit UKC logbook spying, Mike Owen has quite a few E7s logged as OS from 89/90. Looks like he was contemporary with Twid Turner so guess he might've been at the same sort of level too? https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/showlog.php?id=94701&sort=g&country=0&crag=0&gradetype=0&partner=0&year=0&season=0&pitches=0&nresults=50&pg=1
Maybe Seb's ascent of SD was reported as first E7 OS on grit? :shrug:

 

[teestub]

Maybe Seb's ascent of SD was reported as first E7 OS on grit? :shrug:

Probably first person from Sheffield

 

[Will Hunt]

Maybe Seb's ascent of SD was reported as first E7 OS on grit? :shrug:

Probably first person from Sheffield

Does anything else count?

 

[Teaboy]

I’d be surprised if it didn’t involve some pre-inspection, cleaning or beta from Redhead. Anybody know?

I obviously don't know but he wrote an article in High magazine on it at the time and it was certainly clear in that that there was no pre-inspection. I don't think the route was in a guide at the time so he probably had a first hand account from JR of the climb but beta is a continuum so I don't think that in itself would be disqualifying.

Certainly onsight and flashed were often confused (anyone remember the onsight flash?)

Again, going back to the magazines of the day, Mick Ryan wrote an article in OTE about 1989 (in the context of sport climbing) and that was the first time I was aware of the distinction.

 

[Simon Lee]

Potentially huge tangent, but they were crystal clear as explained to me in the nineties. Flash meaning simply first go, onisght meaning without beta.

About as fragile as crystal too when what is considered as constituting beta varies.

I think it’s fair to say that the bar was lower in the 80’s. I know climbers who watched someone top rope the route before climbing it then considered they’d onsighted it.

I’m sure others have felt they’ve done a route onsight by the mores of the day that might not stand up to the modern standard of no beta. Factor in hazy memories as well and the topic is :worms:

From Stefan’s testimony it’s clear that he’s onsighted Strawberries in the modern sense. Pollitt on the Bells could be another. Phil Davidson on Deathwish in 1982 has been mentioned to me as another contender.

 

[petejh]

Maybe Seb's ascent of SD was reported as first E7 OS on grit? :shrug:

Probably first person from Sheffield

Does anything else count?

Apparently not Will. Has it ever? Pre-internet the only ascents that existed were those reported to mags. Post internet, insta.


Craig Parnaby may have onsighted Zero (e7) in the late 80s, along with others around the grade. According to one of my climbing partners who used to climb with him.

 

[Will Hunt]

beta from Redhead.

Is JR capable of giving beta? I can only imagine a stream of consciousness causing the aspirant leader to think that all the holds would be shaped like knobs and fannies.

 

[edshakey]

beta from Redhead.

Is JR capable of giving beta? I can only imagine a stream of consciousness causing the aspirant leader to think that all the holds would be shaped like knobs and fannies.

Does knowing what type of energy a rock has count as beta?

 

[remus]

I’d always thought it was Seb doing Snap Decision in 97 as at the time it was reported as the first.

Interestingly I just had a look on the ukc logbooks and Seb has logged it in 1995 and says "1st grit E7 onsight", so I guess he probably thought/thinks there's other E7 onsights which came before.

 

[andy popp]

I’m sure others have felt they’ve done a route onsight by the mores of the day that might not stand up to the modern standard of no beta. Factor in hazy memories as well and the topic is :worms:

I "onsighted" The Salmon in the early 90s. Though I feel like I onsighted it (and I did all the hard climbing fully onsight), I had some very inconsequential beta for the easy climbing low down and it likely wouldn't pass muster as an onsight today. I wonder how much that is true of some of the other claims from the 80s/early 90s? However, I think there's no way the first E7 OS was as late as '97.

Didn't Steve Mayers OS some E7 FAs on The Range? And what about Vickers?

 

[cheque]

About as fragile as crystal too when what is considered as constituting beta varies.

Onsight’s a virtually indefinable term, everyone has their own idea of what it is. Some people think you can’t onsight a route if you’ve read the guidebook description or belayed someone on it, others have some old school definition which seems to simply mean “didn’t top rope it first”, some think climbing down to the floor is the same as being lowered off etc.

Going off whether people have logged ascents as onsight on UKC is dodgy because there’s almost as many methods of using it as there are climbers- the digital equivalent of using different coloured pens or symbols when ticking a guidebook. :lol: At least one of the people I have listed as a partner on there logs every single route they climb as onsight regardless of the circumstances.

 

[dunnyg]

Is that Will Hunt? I heard he onsights routes he's top roped twice and fallen off on the redpoint 3 times. Logbook of lies, that.

 

[andy moles]

I think it's a reasonably well definable term as long as it's acknowledged that there are different shades of onsight, and that the difference between a very 'pure' onsight and a chalked-to-fuck one where you've had a good gander from every possible angle before tying in and the guidebook description is on the generous side is potentially greater than the difference between the latter and a minimal-beta flash.

Something in one corner of a box may sit closer to something in a corner of the box next to it than something in the opposite corner of the same box, kinda thing... :-\

Though I also think the settling of these rigid style categories has a fair bit to answer for in fucking up some people's enjoyment of climbing.

 

[Simon Lee]

I’d always thought it was Seb doing Snap Decision in 97 as at the time it was reported as the first.

Interestingly I just had a look on the ukc logbooks and Seb has logged it in 1995 and says "1st grit E7 onsight", so I guess he probably thought/thinks there's other E7 onsights which came before.

Yes - I think it must have just been a claim for grit rather than all rock types and I’ve misremembered

 

[Neil F]

Onsight’s a virtually indefinable term, everyone has their own idea of what it is. Some people think you can’t onsight a route if you’ve read the guidebook description or belayed someone on it, others have some old school definition which seems to simply mean “didn’t top rope it first”, some think climbing down to the floor is the same as being lowered off etc.

I log all the routes where I've belayed someone on the line just before I did it, as 'Flashed with beta' (assuming I did actually flash it!), as attentative belaying and onsighting are mutually exclusive in my book.

I do remember once belaying Jon de Montjoye on one of his routes at Falaise du Renard near Vallorcine. Jon was great at giving me copious beta, which naturally I lapped up, giving me a ticklist which somewhat exaggerated my capability. Jon's girlfriend expressed a degree of scepticism at my achievements, so when I came to belay Jon on Sikapath, I sat on the ground, well within her view, deliberately facing out from the crag. I did get my on sight tick on that one, though Jon told me I did it all wrong :lol:

 

[Banana finger]

Surely knowing the grade counts as beta?