Fine motor control and climbing

[Duncan campbell]

From talking to lattice people it seems that some people are just freakishly strong from the get go and the strength tests like that girl one arming a fingerboard at BW aren’t useful metrics for them… likewise for flexible but weak(er) climbers like Hazel Findlay or Maddy Cope, Lattice flexibility tests aren’t as good metrics for ability on rock as your average in flexible male

 

[mrjonathanr]

I find it interesting that some climbers seem to transfer well to rock (often those who were good at comps) but others really struggle (

People who are good at quickly seeing and executing patterns of movement indoors also able to apply that facility outdoors. Makes sense.

 

[Jono.r23]

Maybe the question isnt ‘why are some people so bad at outdoor climbing?’ instead it could be ‘what aspects of outdoor climbing are hard to replicate indoors?’ People who master those things perform well on rock and also explains why some people climb better outside

 

[andy popp]

Why are some people so incredibly bad at climbing outdoors?

There are of course many reasons why the droves of climbers who can warm up on my indoor long term projects cannot go bolt to bolt on my outdoor warmups.

Not focused on the fine motor control part, but more widely my instinct is there's a psychological element to underperforming outside. Where emotions brought on by all the little micro inconveniences you get outside, that you don't get 'inside', impacts on the physical execution. Zero proof obviously. It probably helps not to have emotions.

I'm with Pete on this one. Rather than thinking about how to engage fingers or fine motor skills or whatever so as to replicate indoor performance outside, I think we should think much more holistically about "engagement," even if we do need to be able to hold the holds. How does being outside engage my motivation, my excitement, my intellect, my emotions (it's impossible to be without emotions), my anxiety? How am I engaged with the environment around me? How does it make me feel? How do I engage the weather? The people around me? With what do I come prepared when I step up to engage the route or problem?

 

[petejh]

Maybe the question isnt ‘why are some people so bad at outdoor climbing?’ instead it could be ‘what aspects of outdoor climbing are hard to replicate indoors?’ People who master those things perform well on rock and also explains why some people climb better outside

The sun being a bit too hot, or the wind a bit too chilly. Weather forecasts and judging conditions. Staying warm/cool between goes. Warming up again before goes. The bolts not being closely spaced, or bolts not placed in the best places for clipping. Run outs. Sharp rock. Tides. Walk-ins. What food to bring. Dealing with seepage on holds. Waiting for a turn on the route between other parties. Exposure. Unfamiliar rock type. Dusty/dirty holds. Loose rock. Polished holds. Cracks.

 

[Fultonius]

We were climbing similar problems downstairs, so top end 6s and lower 7s. I know from lattice data that smaller people need more finger strength for the same grade but still.... impressive natural abilities!

I think Dave MacLeod warned about this kind of stuff very early on when these benchmarks came out. I think the takeaway was that initially with a large sample this might be a way of identifying a 'benchmark' (or proxy?) achievement needed at the given grade but as these were then used, and seen as a training goal to achieve that grade, that things would rapidly become skewed. The fact that someone was good at hanging anything on a fingerboard previously wasn't necessarily gained by hanging on fingerboards, whereas now, that's how it's being achieved?

Well, except that this lass had apparently done very little fingerboard training. It seemed that her inability was actually making use of that strength between positions.

Having not climbed anything harder than 5+ outside (whilst one-arming BM slots) simply screams to me that someone doesn't climb outside.

Yes, obviously. That was kind of my point.

 

[Paul B]

The sun being a bit too hot, or the wind a bit too chilly. Weather forecasts and judging conditions. Staying warm/cool between goes. Warming up again before goes. The bolts not being closely spaced, or bolts not placed in the best places for clipping. Run outs. Sharp rock. Tides. Walk-ins. What food to bring. Dealing with seepage on holds. Waiting for a turn on the route between other parties. Exposure. Unfamiliar rock type. Dusty/dirty holds. Loose rock. Polished holds. Cracks.

I'm really surprised you think this is enough of an issue and not more fundamentally that indoors is very bad at replicating outdoors?

I was at Stanage Plantation with a wad (wad says hi) trying something relatively hard and he thought I was joking when I couldn't easily pull on NTBTA but the reality was my footwork and ability to use that kind of foothold effectively was just massively shit. It wasn't anything to do with it being too hot or having forgotten to bring any jam sandwiches!

 

[petejh]

I don’t really think about it that way - like you say feeling a bit chilly isn’t going to be a showstopper to doing or not doing NTBTA.

My point is more aimed at the situation jwi described, where the indoor wad he mentions in an earlier post fails to climb a 6c route outdoors. I’m presuming we’re not talking about a subtle friction move here.
I don’t think this sort of situation can only have a physical cause, I think negative emotions may play a part in hampering performance. All the little things listed above don’t happen indoors, where life is uncomplicated and engineered to be comfortable.

Any combination of those factors could lead to negative emotions - which in an extreme case could leading to failing well below your physical potential.

 

[Jono.r23]

So theres the technical aspect of working with different rock types. And along with this, the willingness to embrace some combination of the above list of variables. I think this bit is true tbh, the random selection of unknowns that cant be trained for without exposure. In all cases its familiarity with a range of hard to replicate variables, and as someone said, ascribed value leading to willingness to embrace these i think. If you’re not that assed, or on some level less comfortable and confident that will affect performance

 

[SA Chris]

‘why are some people so bad at outdoor climbing?’ instead it could be ‘what aspects of outdoor climbing are hard to replicate indoors?

Any attempts to replicate outdoors ( as mentioned above, inserted holds into the wall that are incut rather than screwed on but also frictiony surfaces and subtle moulded features) have fallen out of favour at modern climbing walls because, I guess, they are not as easy to manufacture and make it hard to continuously reset with much variety.

 

[stone]

My experience of indoor climbing is extremely limited but I'm struck though by how many setters don't seem to want to replicate outdoor climbing so much.

I chatted to some of the setters at the Matrix (sadly no longer open) asking if a problem or two could be set with all/many of the holds swivelled around to make it like the side-pulls and weird feet that seem such a shock when climbing on Peak limestone. Just rotating everything 90o would do the trick wouldn't it? I found that I got tweeky sides to my hands after a winter of not subjecting them to sidepulls. They said that they did have lots of sidepulls and undercuts already. But they meant civilised modest deviations from the horizontal, not the unrelenting everything facing the wrong way stuff we enjoy outside.

 

[jwi]

As many have noted there are obviously other obstacles than being able to grab onto weirdly shaped stuff for outdoor beginners. And I could quickly name several that are in no dispute, chiefly lack of endurance and fear of heights.

Many short outdoor boulders take almost a minute to complete on the flash even if they are relatively straightforward and you are actually Adam Ondra, and indoors you can get 12 meters of the ground in about 5 seconds. That seems like an important distinction. Among others.

However, I have not often seen mentioned that grabbing "weird" holds is a skill. And I have with my own eyes seen climbers who are really impressive in their "homegym" struggle with holds in a different gym!