Coaching, training plan, advice from a mate?

[crimpinainteasy]

I agree that this is probably the biggest driver in general top-end improvements - bigger pool of people taking up the sport younger.

Exactly so it chafes a bit to see companies and individuals charging large amounts of money for "expertise" in a phenomenon which they likely had little or no influence over

Ah, here's where I think our views differ. I think the key driver in the change in top-end performance (e.g., the number of people climbing 9b or 8C+ or more) between 15 years ago and now is likely to be the larger pool of talent and younger starting age. However, I think it is much easier for an averagely-talented and quite motived climber to achieve 8c now that it was 15 years ago, and a key driver for that is kneepads much more accessible knowledge on how to improve at climbing and train for climbing (and widespread testimonies of the improvements that that can bring)

Also, the more I think about it the more strange that argument is. While I have had little to no influence in the expansion of solar PV deployment, if you want me and my company to model manufacturing costs for a prospective US PV factory we will still charge you for it. A doctor may not have personally had any influence on improving treatments for disease X, but I still expect them to get paid for advising me on how to treat disease X (if only so I don't have to go to med school for 5 years).

Larger pool of talent had definitely role in the rate of grade progression but to me I think the evolution of training methodology has surely played an equally important part. The difference is so stark that guys at the top end like Will are sending boulders in a couple tries that were right at the cutting edge and taking the top climbers of yester year multiple seasons of work to send.

 

[jwi]

I don't think knowledge about physical training has improved that much from the late 80s to be honest. At least not for sport climbing. I doubt many coaches today know a lot of things that JiBe did not know in 1987. And two the three 9c climbers in the world never had much or any formal coaching.

What has changed a lot is mass access to decent year round training facilities, and quick dissimination of efficient movement patterns, first through cheap travel to international hot-spots, then later through video and finally on-line video.

 

[teestub]

The difference is so stark that guys at the top end like Will are sending boulders in a couple tries that were right at the cutting edge and taking the top climbers of yester year multiple seasons of work to send.

The 9A grade is best part of a decade old now, so the difference isn’t that stark!

 

[Hoseyb]

I'd be interested in the consensus on what level of 'expertise' is involved in being able to give effective training advice to anyone below the low 8th grade. My guestimate, about the level of 'expertise' of doing a GCSE, i.e. something most reasonably motivated people with a basic grasp of a topic could handle! Above a typical plateau in the low 8s I think it's probably a very different story.

All the work I've done as a coach has been for sub 8 climbers.

The ceilings they've been butting their heads against have not been an issue of training, but technique and tactics. It's not so much the "how to" they benefit from, as the "why it works" and how that can be examined, experimented with and MacGyvered into a variety of situations.

I struggle with the term expertise, but I've worked quite hard not only to understand how climbing movement works, but how to communicate this to people who ' haven't learnt the language yet '.

I do agree that training knowledge is rarely the limiting factor for people climbing below low 8's , at least in sport climbing.

 

[remus]

Perhaps I'm wrong but I'd attribute Aiden's training success (if we're taking his own effort for granted) to being a prodigy of Carlisle Slapper (not a particular slouch when it comes to training)? Am I wrong here, was Bosi actually trained by Lattice far far earlier than I was aware? He seemed to be on a steep upward trajectory before I associated him with the brand.

Aidan was already operating at a high level when he started working with Lattice (around 2020 I think?), but I'd argue he's continued to improve since then https://climbing-history.org/climber/227/aidan-roberts Obviously I don't want to make it sound like this is solely due to Lattice's input, as there's a huge amount of graft and skill required from a climber at this level to continue making improvements at the top level, but I know Ollie T has put a lot of time and effort in to coaching and training him and changed how he trained.

Bosi has been working with Tom / Lattice since I started there around 2015. Likewise, Toby Roberts was working with Ollie for a long time before his mega comp season last year.

To my mind, those three are the best climbers in the UK right now.

 

[remus]

The difference is so stark that guys at the top end like Will are sending boulders in a couple tries that were right at the cutting edge and taking the top climbers of yester year multiple seasons of work to send.

The 9A grade is best part of a decade old now, so the difference isn’t that stark!

Burden took Nalle 100+ sessions over three years, not including sessions spent training. Will did the second ascent in 14 sessions, plus 10 sessions training on the replica. That's a big difference imo.

 

[Fiend]

None of which means that focusing on specific training plans is ideal for newish / inexperienced climbers at 6A rather than 9A....

 

[Moo]

I think you’d need to look at the speed a comparable first ascent was done rather than a first ascent versus a repeat. ( I’m not saying that would prove you wrong ).

I’d also note that burden isn’t something which I’d typically say was nalle’s style. I wonder how bosi would get on with doing the black circuit at cuisiniere that’d be a really interesting challenge to watch him take on.

 

[stone]

In terms of Tom driving a McLaren, I couldn't care less how people choose to spend their money

I wonder whether part of what makes me feel so fiercely defensive of Lattice etc (even though I'm not a customer) is that paying for coaching exemplifies where luxury consumerism has to shift to, if our planet is to have a hope. IMO paying for coaching is the perfect environmentally friendly luxury.

I'm full of admiration for climbers such as Zippy who don't have a car.

 

[stone]

Perhaps Lattice etc have especially helped the least-clued-up 50% of climbers.

I remember when I first moved to the Peak just over 20years ago, I went to Hobson Moor as it's close to me. I asked people there about sport climbing. I was told that decent sport climbing in the Peak started at about 7b+ and in order to climb like that it was necessary to do lots of campus-boarding and most people would just get injured from such training. The guy who told me this, said he had given it a whirl, had done a 7b+ but had also got catastrophic bad elbows from all the campus-boarding. Anyway he was up for doing some trad and I did go trad climbing with him quite a few times.

I also mooched around at the Tor, and from that, it was very apparent that that campus-boarding spiel was nonsense.

I'm thinking though that thanks to Lattice etc, such whack notions are now much less likely to take hold with anyone. A very cursory google would now contradict them.

 

[36chambers]

I think you’d need to look at the speed a comparable first ascent was done rather than a first ascent versus a repeat. ( I’m not saying that would prove you wrong ).

I'm pretty sure Nalle spent most of time using a duff sequence on Burden.

I've done various periods in my life of training a lot and others where I've barely trained. I'm probably in the middle of the two now. The points I've trained lots have delivered some of the best climbing experiences I'll ever have. I get why people do it. Paying for a training plan/coach obviously would have in no way devalued the outcome, but in my head, stylistically I'm still glad I didn't and that I worked it out for myself, even though it was inefficient, involved asking loads of people for advice, loads of trial and error etc etc. Maybe this is just me? A bit like how I'm always more pleased to do a problem or route ground up rather than throwing a rope down it. This is obviously a philosophical position so it's understandable that it isn't shared by everyone, but I sympathise with those who think that the commodification of training means something has been lost.

I'm exactly the same. I also can't help but romanticise the idea of an uncoached crusher, despite how ridiculous that is.

Although I'm certain that if my mates all started getting coached I would quickly follow suit for fear of them leaving me behind :lol:

 

[Paul B]

...To my mind, those three are the best climbers in the UK right now.

My point was regarding the onboarding; at the time it felt like Aiden's successes (to use him as an example) were linked to the brand in a way that felt a touch disingenuous (but not unique in that other sports and businesses do similar things).

Was I wrong about the Lattice Lite plans? It feeds into Stone's comment:

I'm thinking though that thanks to Lattice etc, such whack notions are now much less likely to take hold with anyone. A very cursory google would now contradict them.

I think this discussion is becoming very cylic; the counter point to this is people now Google and decide they need a periodized training programme. As GME pointed out on another thread, there was originally a grade barrier to entry.

 

[stone]

My impression (happy to be corrected) is that such a 7a+ redpoint climber aspiring for 7b+ might now read/pay-for Lattice stuff, do a mix of shoulder conditioning and timed bouldering/circuits and get into the 8s relatively untroubled by injuries.

Just having a go at >7b+ routes and doing some limestone bouldering would also probably be fine for many people in that situation. But evidently that guy didn't take that path in the days before Lattice.

Might periodisation also help to prevent injuries even for those starting from a weak/under-trained starting point? I'm so ignorant about all of this.

Ondra's video course looks to be entirely targeted at the other criticism people have with commercial training in that it seems to be all about movement efficiency. And yet people said he was just a grifter too.

 

[spidermonkey09]

My impression (happy to be corrected) is that such a 7a+ redpoint climber aspiring for 7b+ might now read/pay-for Lattice stuff, do a mix of shoulder conditioning and timed bouldering/circuits and get into the 8s relatively untroubled by injuries.

On what are you basing this impression? It's completely unprovable either way. Plenty of people get injured training.

 

[stone]

My impression was that for a relatively weak climber to be using campus-boarding as a mainstay (as that guy was), was vastly more likely to cause injury than whatever Lattice would advise.

PS, Paul was quoting a bit from my comment: https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,33916.msg689414.html#msg689414

 

[spidermonkey09]

That would probably be enough for you to climb Jason's Roof. But let's say you climb it and decide that you really enjoy compression boulders, and your long term goal is now to climb The Big Island. Do you think you might start training a bit differently? Potentially entertaining the idea of periodization?

I know the point you're trying to make here but the sheer unlikelihood of this made me laugh. Bouldering 8C might as well be in a different galaxy! I'd be happy with a single 8A :lol:

It's easier to answer this question talking about sport climbing cause that's my main focus. I think if I wanted to climb 8c+ or harder I would have to train seriously. Maybe I would engage with periodisation, I don't know. The whole thing seems pretty fraught with risk/guesswork given the unreliability of UK lime! I would be interested to know if Barrows has trained like this for his UK projects or whether he's just got on them when they're dry.

 

[tk421a]

I don't really understand the pushback against coaching. Nobody bats an eyelid at sending kids to school or university, getting driving lessons, professional training etc so why is getting someone to help you with climbing any different? It's the same as a teacher setting homework in my mind. I probably could've passed my degree just reading textbooks but the supervisions definitely helped.

Saying that as someone who has mostly self coached but used guides / instructors liberally.

 

[GazM]

Well that's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? Getting a degree, learning to drive, these are things you can only really achieve without being taught by someone else, and they are things that will set you up for your whole life.
Climbing, for all but a very tiny minority, is a a hobby. And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.

 

[abarro81]

And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.

Perhaps without being "taught" by someone else, but not without learning lots from other people...

I would be interested to know if Barrows has trained like this for his UK projects or whether he's just got on them when they're dry.

I've not trained for much in the UK, mostly I use things in the UK as training for stuff abroad. I think Preposterous Tales is the exception to that, but it wasn't supposed to be like that - we got fucked with covid restrictions and couldnt go to Spain as planned that Jan, so I made a new focus of being in shape for that, planned to be fit in late Spring and made rough repicas to do indoor power endurance sessions on...

 

[tk421a]

Well that's a bit of a false equivalence isn't it? Getting a degree, learning to drive, these are things you can only really achieve without being taught by someone else, and they are things that will set you up for your whole life.
Climbing, for all but a very tiny minority, is a a hobby. And it's one that you can get very, very good at it without being taught by someone else.

I assume you meant "with being taught"?
You can learn to drive from a parent without an instructor. Not sure how much contact time an OU course has but loads of degrees are online study, postgraduate diplomas etc.
It'll vary from person to person, but I stopped going to lectures and just learnt from course notes for the last 3 years of my degree. I also haven't used any technical knowledge from it since graduating.
And I disagree that climbing being "just a hobby" means it's any less worthy of spending money on. More so if anything!
As an interesting parallel, scuba diving in the UK has a big club scene similar to climbing, but everywhere else in the world it's more commercial. If anyone goes abroad to dive they'll almost certainly pay to get a certification, and while then being able to independently dive the norm would be to continue to go to dive shops and join groups with a guide.