Brandenburg Gate finally falls

[Will Hunt]

it wouldn't make it any better, it would only make it longer. They aren't the same thing.

IMO the best routes always start at the bottom and go to the top. Occasional exceptions exist for rock quality, vegetation etc. At least this one is at the tor, so it was never going to be one of the best anyway! Obvious finish from the Mecca chains would be up Hajj, which while relatively easy for Will, would still be dropable (I guess comparable to doing a short 8b to a big jug then having a 7c+ headwall to put on top - you shouldn't drop it, and it maybe doesn't change the grade, but it still adds spice)

This, 100%.

The idea of stopping when the difficulty eases just makes no sense, I don't care how hard the overall climb is. To compare with say Malham, many of the routes off the catwalk are quite short, but they stop when the difficulty significantly increases, not the other way round. Stopping at a decrease is nothing but a cop out.

I suspect what's really happening with Jerry's comment is that he and others may have worried they'd fall off if they carried on, but if so it's not so easy then is it!

Fair enough to Will for simply climbing what was the original vision, but if I were him I'd be straight back there to take it to the top of the crag. Frankly it's a bit embarrasing for British climbing that this clutch of some of our hardest routes finish in such a poor way, Mutation being the obvious exception, and Evolution as well given the extensions to that do add significant difficulty.

Yep. I can see why you'd play it safe and bank the 9a+ bit, but you'd think you'd go back to finish up Mecca Extension or Hajj at least - at least to stop some bellend doing it after you, giving it more stars and putting 9b on it.

While we're at it I can't think of any sane reason why Hubble shouldn't finish up The Prow. Is this a good crag or isn't it?

 

[Fiend]

Looks like 9a+ is the grade, and footage available tomorrow morning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqoVQxpYwlw

Magnificent. Despite all the armchair negativity in this thread.

Seriously though, he does climb it well. Would be quite a whipper if you muffed clipping the chain.

 

[Duma]

Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.

 

[andy popp]

Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.

I'm still utterly confused as to what Shark is trying.

I actually rather love that the route is so ridiculous and don't think it's spoiled by not going any further.

And only one preclipped draw! Which kind of amazed me.

 

[Bonjoy]

My point in the other thread is that you can't afford to be lacking in either nowadays. I think in the 90s particularly advances in technique lagged behind advances in strength somewhat, which is totally understandable given the types of training that had just been developed. There were brilliant technicians but they arguably tended to not also be the very strongest climbers. Now the top climbers are undoubtedly both.

Other than the new school heels, knees and compression....

I mean, can you really argue that yesterday's best were technically brilliant without having mastered these skills which are by modern standards fairly basic and not considered new school by anyone under 30. I see new school technical brilliance as more about speed, accuracy, coordination, and a total grasp of the full range of climbing skills on all angles.

A bit like that old school route mutation that Will just took 40 days on. Needs to get working on his technique.

Reading Steve's diary entries and listening to the interview with Will it seems pretty clear that Mutation is an outlier in terms of conditions dependent difficulty. Clearly both climbers would have ticked the route a good deal sooner if they'd got the (rare) conditions window. I don't think it can really be held up to prove technical ability hasn't advanced much, any more than it can be used as proof that modern climbers are light years ahead in terms if strength.

 

[cheque]

Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.

:thumbsup: Neither Anger Management or Cross n Angry have lines on the topo though so good luck with that. :lol: As far as I can tell They’re combinations of 10, 15, 16 & 21.

 

[Duncan campbell]

Thanks for the topos gents, makes following sharks power club entries a bit easier.

Cross’n’angry starts up bodymachine, then traverses right to prow belay #1, then goes directly up and into crucifixion. So 10 up to Then join 15 where it travels right, then up 21 into 16. Basically takes in the best bits of the left side of the tor. Imo

 

[Kingy]

These long linkups seem destined for obscurity. I did Kabaa into Resistance is Futile, a cool, steep 7c extension to Chimes to the top of the crag which added nothing gradewise to the original but don't think it will ever be repeated as most folk are content to call it good at the Mecca extension loweroff (not totally hands off there BTW).

 

[mrjonathanr]

Jerry needs his eyes tested if he thinks that's the obvious place to finish

Anyone climbing at Jerry’s level wouldn’t even question it.
Apparently.

 

[petejh]

[list type=decimal]
[*]
[*]
[/list]

Possibly of further interest, here’s the topo from the 1969 guide.

1. Koran, HVS
2. Hubris, A3
3. Prow Route, A3
4. Brandenburg Gate, A2
5. Mecca, A2
6. Bolt Route, A2
7. Sardine, A3
8. Girdle Traverse, A2

Presumably those faint lines between 5 and 6 represent Shark in what would 30 years later become Ben's Roof.

 

[mrjonathanr]

Dude, that’s some siege.

 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

This is all entertaining stuff.

Few points.

Fully appreciate Will not being bothered with "completing the route" - and sidestepping into the Mecca belay. However, I, like most folk here would probably opt for something different. Any chance of a belay at the weekend? Mind, there'll probably be a queue on it!

I'm presuming - looking at the footage - that the first draw was clipped and climbed down from. It certainly looked clippable. (Edit. Yep, watching again, easy peasy.)
If not, then I'd still call that an aided ascent.

If anyone thinks the footage makes it look as though Will rinsed it, I think they're mistaken. The margin between a "no mistakes ascent" and failure is measurable as about 1.6 x 10-35m on any move.

Still trying to think of other route name suggestions.. Violent New Brand ;D

This is still massive news for UK rock.

If he was Jerry, he'd call it something like The Willberforce..

 

[Stabbsy]

Coincidentally, the replacement for the Hubble telescope (launched 1990) called the Jimmy Webb Space Telescope (yes, really) is due to be launched next month. Meanwhile, 3m to the right at Raven Tor….

 

[SA Chris]

Amazing. Now he's got the tick, surely the linkups are the obvious choice.

 

[Sidehaas]

Interesting reading the comments above about the route finishing half way up the cliff, and then seeing the clip from a new 9b just put up at Margalef (link from the other channel's latest 'ticklist' article)
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CV0uck_D846/?utm_source=ig_embed

We are not alone! In this Margalef example the guy is also open that he is still working the route above. It seems strange to me that he has claimed a route at the point he got to, but maybe that's the local ethics.

 

[IanP]

Amazing. Now he's got the tick, surely the linkups are the obvious choice.

Not sure he thinks so - answered the question on the comments to the youtube vid:

'Very different style to Mutation so not really comparable, you could extend it but it wouldnt change the grade and as the route is about the boulder at the start it doesnt make much sense to keep going.'

 

[cowboyhat]

The idea that he should have kept going up some moderate ground is TOTAL BOLLOCKS.

Hubble doesn't finish up the Prow, nor has anyone ever considered that.

Dave I hope you were making a joke

I'm presuming - looking at the footage - that the first draw was clipped and climbed down from. It certainly looked clippable. (Edit. Yep, watching again, easy peasy.)
If not, then I'd still call that an aided ascent.

Good effort Will. The route looks like Hubble but a bit harder. Chapeau.

As with a lot of the Tor/Peak Lime routes; good choice to stick with the old aid route name. Thanks Mike for posting the aid topo.

 

[cheque]

Why are people acting like they’ve never heard of sport routes that finish partway up the cliff before?!

 

[abarro81]

No-one is acting like that. People are saying that routes that start at the bottom and go to the top are better. Because they are*.

Earlier lower offs are usually a historical thing and there because the extension adds difficulty (see most intermediate chains in Europe, Mecca, Evo, Raindogs etc.). Sometimes they even get removed (e.g. Biographie L1, or a route I did in France the other week). Sometimes they're convenience because the extension doesn't add difficulty but does add inconvenience (see Hubble - you need to remember how to climb the top bit, have clips in etc.)... this is ok, but not as good as going to the top IMO*. With this one it's the latter, though I bet Hajj is droppable even for Will unless he has it dialled. Like I said - a short 8a+ with a headwall finishing up a 7c is still better when taken to the top IMO, even if no change in grade (this is why I finished up Waddge when I did my Belly's gonna get ya link - it made it go from the very back to the top)... but then I like long things, and I can see why you wouldn't bother, and I'm sure I've done that on stuff in the past (e.g. Ted's example of Kaabah, where it didn't even occur to me to keep going up and right) so I'm definitely a hypocrite.

* Perhaps the distinction here is quality of route vs funness experience? Short things with long easier exits may give many people a more fun experience when finished low (due to reduced faff) but are, IMO, still a less good route and don't pass the "why didn't you go to the top" test that a pre-climbing version of yourself would ask. Kinda like traversing off WSS.

p.s. It can still be good, just not AS good IMO. Single pitch routes at the bottom of Ramirole are still amazing even if they don't go to the top of the cliff...

 

[SA Chris]

Presumably those faint lines between 5 and 6 represent Shark in what would 30 years later become Ben's Roof.

Historic moss more like.