Access

[Bonjoy]

Some correspondence with R-man and jacuzzi, for what it's worth.

Hi Jon

Thanks for your email.

Please see both my responses below to Robin.

As there are many large access issues on at the moment - whilst we are sympathetic to gaining the access to this new crag - it may be a case of someone coming on board who wants to climb there & helping us out with all the detail (i.e where it all is etc) and we can go visit the crag & see whats what.

So I'm happy to support a group of climbers if they wish to gain access and if there's 2 or 3 of you that want to lead on this - we will provide the BMC support.

Just as an aside - what sort of stuff has already been done there & what projects are there still to go at? And really is it worth a combined effort to go with this? It certainly looks a good crag from the one photo I have seen!

As for the rock stabiliser - every time I've gone to put some on the holds I've wanted to - there's always been loads of people around or its pigged out. I've still got the stuff - so I'll try & make an effort soon one day in the week when I get a day off.

Glad your efforts have been somewhat successful!!

Finally - would you mind giving me a hand with the Rowtor Script for the new guide? - as I know you have put up some new routes there etc and although I have been quite a few times - the lay out of the place is giving me a bit of a headache & would appreciate fresh eye's to look at it - pull it apart etc.

Cheers Jon

Si

Simon Jacques
Senior Human Resources Advisor
Sheffield Teaching Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust
( 0114 271 4037
Fax: 0114 226 6996

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: SIMON JACQUES [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 11 March 2006 18:24
To: Robin Mueller
Subject: Re: Sorting out access to a new crag


Hi Robin

I've just spoken to Henry Folkard about the area & there some quesiton about it being an English nature SSSI site - as there is a sign there apparently??

Henry seems to think that this may not be the case - but we need to check it out - so if Jon gets in touch we can look at it all.

Henry's not a boulderer and has much on his plate - but I convinced him that its a worthy crag to fight access for & he seemed to be on board with it and even said he would be happy to have a venture out there.

So fingers X'd and we shall try slowly but surely to work on access for the crag.

Cheers

Si

>From: SIMON JACQUES
>To: robin mueller
>Subject: Re: Sorting out access to a new crag
>Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2006 20:17:32 +0000 (GMT)
>
>Hi Robin
>
> Thanks for the email.
>
> First off the craglet looks wicked - I fully sympathise why you guys
>want to climb there. Good find!
>
> It sounds a toughie if the owner has asked for no climbing to take place
>there - as that is his right & it won't be Crow land. You (or Jon) said
>that the footpath isn't public either - which makes it even harder to get
>access.
>
> What I will say though is that I agree with Henry and find out via the
>Rambles Asc what the access is to the path ( as clearly people are walking
>on it for a reason?? )
>
> Henry IS very sensitive and supportive of bouldering (hence why I was
>given the rep job) and will try to help wherever and when ever he can - its
>just for a volunteer - he has a lot on his plate to contend with.
>
> What I will do is give him a call & have a chat and if you can give me a
>bit more info on the location that would be very helpfull before I do.
>
> I suppose all we can do is lobby the owner and give him some information
>about access & liability etc (if Jon could get in touch too & tell me
>exactly the nature of the conversation they had with him that would be very
>useful ) and give him all the facts before he imposes a total ban.
>
> Lets hope for the sake of some fine new problems in the Peak on what
>looks the best new discovery for a long time, that we can somehow talk him
>round.
>
> What I will say with my rep hat on tho is that access issues are highly
>sensitive and I would ask that no one goes there in the meantime while we
>try to sort this out, as that could jepodise any agreement that we are
>woking towards. So please spread the word & kindly ask people to stay away
>for the moment.
>
> I hope that gives some help for you and if it means that I can have a
>play too - Henry and I will do anything we can to help you guys.
>
> Cheers
>
> Simon
>
>
>
>robin mueller wrote:
> Hi Simon,
>
>As you are the peak bouldering rep, I thought you might be a
>good person to ask about this. Basically a few people who
>post regularly on ukbouldering discovered a new limestone
>crag which from the photos looks brilliant. They climbed
>there a little, but were then asked to leave.
>
>Here's what John Fulwood (aka Bonjoy) said:
>
>"Basically we climbed there a number of times. On the last
>occasion a couple of locals (live about 200m away) walked
>past and asked us what we were doing and presumably then
>walked on and told the land owner who lives at the ends of
>the path (not a public footpath it turned out). A while
>later the old man who owns the crag turned up and said he'd
>rather we didn't climb on his property. He gave various
>flimsy reasons including that the 'livestock' were nesting
>at this time of year and we might disturb them and elluded
>to fear of liability in the even of an accident. So we left.
>We have not actively persued it further. Cofe spoke to the
>BMCs peak limestone access rep (John Henry Folkard?), who
>gave some advice about contacting the ramblers association,
>but didn't offer to to actually persue the case personally.
>I don't imagine the BMC see limestone bouldering crags as
>especially high priority anyway.I don't think the RA have
>yet been contacted. Unfortunately we dont have a name
>address or e-mail for the landowner. I guess I could find
>his house with google earth Rolling Eyes .
>You are welcome to try and dig a bit deeper. Maybe the
>landowner could be talked round, who knows. Keep me posted
>if you do intend to ssend the landowner any correspondence
>and i'll help if I can. Cheers."
>
>So we were all wondering what the best way to go about
>trying to sort out access would be?
>
>There's more on this thread:
>
>http://ukbouldering.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=3337&start=150
>
>And some photos:
>
>http://ukbouldering.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10110/normal_unclimbed2.jpg
>
>http://ukbouldering.com/gallery/albums/images/craigD01.jpg
>
>Any ideas about what to do next, or who to talk to?
>
>Cheers
>
>-Robin
>
>--
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>
>
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Hi Simon,



Robin Mueller has been in touch recently about trying to negotiate access for Craig David. He mentioned he had had discussions with yourself regarding how to move forward on this. It's a fair while since I last visited the place. As far as I know no one has climbed there since the landowner expressed his wishes.

It's hard to pinpoint exactly what the owners concerns were as he didn't give a clearly expressed case for his wishes. I believe he came out to see us due to a visit from another local resident who earlier walked past with his dog and seemed hostile to our presence. It looked like the dog walker persuaded the owner to see us off. There is a car parking issue which could easily be resolved by parking elsewhere. The owner hinted at concern over his liability in the event of an accident, but he did not seem to understand the issue well. The owner expressed concern about disturbance to ‘livestock' during the nesting season, by which I presume he meant nesting birdlife. Generally I got the impression he just didn't like the idea of scruffy climbers turning up en masse on his property and the reasons he gave were rather secondary to this core prejudice. Whether he could be talked round I couldn't say, though my gut feeling is not. If you do intend to speak to him I think it is critical you have a strong case and make it well at the first visit, as after that he will simply try to defend whatever position he has taken. It would be worth pointing out the good character of climbers in general, as demonstrated by the way we immediately and completely complied with his wish for us not to visit the rocks. Perhaps some limited or controlled access could be arranged (as per cragx Dale/Crag X). Please let me know beforehand if you are going to try to negotiate and what approach you intend to take.



How did the rock stabiliser trials go? How are your repairs holding up?

I've now trialled three solutions. Each seem suitable for different scenarios and all have worked well so far. I am especially pleased with a repair I did over two years ago to a crucial little foothold on Brads wall, prior to the repair it was a rapidly disintegrating mess, since repair it is no longer sandy and has not eroded at all.





Regards



Jon Fullwood

 

[cofe]

i'm re-psyched for sorting access out for this place as it is potentially an incredible venue.

reading between the lines in the above emails it isn't high on the agenda of the bmc. fair enough - buying places like horseshit quarry is a far more noble cause.

apparently the access and conservation group at the bmc are the people to speak to but may require a little pressure if we are to get what we want: access.

any thoughts about how to go about it would be appreciated. what i see is the best route is someone with access knowledge, experience and authority speaks to the landowner on behalf of the climbing community. he is then reassured that no damage will be done etc and climbers won't cause problems.

can you let me know if i can count on your support if i am to contact them? if so, could you PM me your email address?

if you believe anyone else can add intelligently add to this debate please PM bonjoy and have them added.

thanks.

 

[dave]

I think one good point to address to the geezer is something to invalidate the excuse about liability. of course i have no idea what the law actually says, but even still its worth looking into the facts. I doubt that any climber has sucessfully persued a liability case against a landowner in this country (correct me if i'm wrong) which would be worth pointing out to the guy at least.

If this is not high on the BMC's agenda now then it damn well aught to be. I mean that's what they are there for. If it means we all have to bombard the access people with emails and phonecalls to bring it home that this is something that people are serious about then so be it. It is what i'd want me membership dollars to go to, or should i say the money i paid to join when i was a member several years ago but aren't now....

maybe we could even get some kinda agreement with the guy if he is really bothered about "livestock" to not climb there in the nesting season or whatever, but respectfully point out that he allows his neighbours to walk their dogs there which could also bother the nesting fresians.

 

[cofe]

I think one good point to address to the geezer is something to invalidate the excuse about liability.

maybe we could even get some kinda agreement with the guy if he is really bothered about "livestock" to not climb there in the nesting season or whatever, but respectfully point out that he allows his neighbours to walk their dogs there which could also bother the nesting fresians.

two good points. the first one better.

landowner assured about liability and told climbers won't go at certain times of year when his sheep are nesting etc.

i may look to draft an email to bmc this week. will post up before sending.

 

[Stahl]

When I get some time I'll dig around a bit on the legal stuff. Not sure if there have been any reported actions against landowners by climbers, I suspect not, and that by its self may be persuasive. I'm guessing any action would be under the Occupiers liability act. This does give a land owner a duty of care over people that are invited onto the land - this may be what he's afraid of. I'm a bit busy this week, but I'll do some research later.

 

[Bonjoy]

Nice one Ru. It would be good to have some real knowledge on this.
As I mentioned in my email, I think it's worth pointing out what good natured law abiding, ownership sensative individuals boulderers are, as evidenced by the fact that we have completely complied with his wish not the climb on the rocks to date.
I think it is also worth offering to carry out maintenance/improvement work to the area as good will and evidence we are responsible users of his land. According to need we could offer to repair/install fencing, put up signage, clear any litter, remove any loose and potentially dangerous material on the cragtop, or for that matter mow his lawn, whatever if it's going to help.
I think given that the neighbors could be the source of the problem, we offer to park elsewhere. This should help to avoid alerting them to our presence

 

[cofe]

all good stuff. keep it coming. i'm pretty busy at the mo but when i have a creative minute i'll put pen to keyboard.

 

[dave]

..or for that matter mow his lawn, whatever if it's going to help.

I'll burn him any CDs or DVDs of mine he wants copying. We could also get scouse to give him a blowie.

 

[cofe]

..or for that matter mow his lawn, whatever if it's going to help.

We could also get scouse to give him a blowie.

i didn't know the good doctor was a hootie and the blowfish fan.

...we digress - let's keep it on subject for once.

 

[cofe]

does anyone have any info on this place from previous attempts?

grid ref?
address/name of landowner?

 

[dave]

SK 553898 i believe.

I would guess the owner may live on Flat Lane, Stone, S66, but that's just an educated guess.

I also think the track beneath the crag is called Horseshoe Lane.

 

[cofe]

i'm drafting a note now.

can we add r-man o this forum?

 

[cofe]

can i also have the email addresses or just the names of people who would be willing to support this but may not use this forum? e.g. iain farrar etc?

can andy harris, kim, grimer, mark etc also be added?

 

[cofe]

in very rough form - do we think it would be prudent to use the telephone instead in the first instance?



Hi Guy, Cath,

I'm told that you're the people to contact at the BMC with regards to access, in particular with regard to obtaining it where issues might exist.

Quite a few years ago a chap discovered a limestone craglet close to Maltby, near Rotherham in South Yorkshire. We nicknamed the venue ‘Craig y David' (SK 553898). I'd been on a couple of occasions to check it out after rainy day visits to the nearby bouldering venue of Roche Abbey but had never climbed there. Early in the summer of 2004 it started to receive a fair bit of attention and development which unfortunately ended abruptly when some locals passed by and then informed the landowner. He arrived on the scene and asked that the assembled group of climbers leave as they may disturb the nesting livestock (quite!).

Shortly afterwards I made some enquiries to Henry Folkard but was told to contact the Ramblers Association for some more information. After making little headway I lost interest.

However, in recent weeks, stimulated by the prospect of another summer on Raven Tor/Rubicon/Stoney Middleton (delete as appropriate), and following a conservation with a welsh activist I have become enthused again at the prospect of obtaining access.

As we are not access experts, nor do we have knowledge of CRoW, I was hoping you would be willing to take on our cause. I have copied in numerous individuals who would like to see access to this venue as the place has incredible potential – I attach a few photographs also for your information.

We believe the landowner may live on Flat Lane, in Stone, S66 ???. We also believe the track below the crag is called Horseshoe Lane.

We feel there are several points to note that may strengthen our cause:

• Liability: we aren't aware any of climbers taking on a case against a landowner and certainly not successfully prosecuting a landowner.
• Authority: an access negotiation coming from someone with knowledge and experience, i.e. you guys, would carry considerably more weight.
• Good will: In the majority climbers are good natured, law-abiding, ownership-sensitive individuals – exemplified by the fact we have not returned to the venue since being evicted.
• Reciprocity: we would be willing to carry out improvement work to the area as good will and evidence that we are responsible users of his land. According to need we could offer to repair/install fencing, put up signage, clear any litter, remove any loose and potentially dangerous material on the cragtop, or for that matter mow his lawn.
• Livestock: if indeed he does have livestock nesting we will make clear that climbing will be prohibited during this season (!).

We sincerely hope that you are in a position to act as our representative on this issue and we will offer any further assistance within our gift.

If you would like any further information regarding this please do contact me directly.

Many thanks in advance,

 

[dave]

sounds good.

on a side-note i did go on the CROW map site yesterday and the area craig david is on is not listed as having any kind of access availalbe, but then agian its not listed as having no access either. I assume the type of land doesn't fall under the CROW shit.

 

[Paz]

If I was the land owner I'd be concerned about the parking because there very nearly isn't none. It's always been a sod there to get as far off the road as you can there.

It's alright saying `that's what the BMC's there for' too, but down here in the west country the word I heard was that the BMC were getting a bit pieved with a local Wye Valley sport enthusiast who kept expecting them to fight for access to every latest crap hole he'd bolted up. I dare say
one or two people are relieved that his newly arrived kids have put his new routing on to the back burner. I think as we have had here, you'll get more joy by volunteering and doing all the donkey work for them or helping out as good as you can.

I asked Trudi and someone else who's Peak rep or something about Roche Abbey a while back too, particularly about the SSSI non excuse thing. I can give you their replies if you like, if they let me. I might have asked completly the wrong people, but I think they basically are towing the don't go in the SSSI line even though it does not necessarily conflict with climbing - The Avon Gorge is an SSSI, Cheddar Gorge is an SSSI, Brean Down is, Huntsham is, etc. etc. The only scientists I know of who are interested in Avon are the local botanists and wildlife conservationists (apart from the Civil Engineering students who mostly go to admire Brunel's suspension bridge). When I looked in to the SSSI legislation and there're two types of restrictions - geological and botanical. Apart from the possibility of a so called `unique (ivy ridden) cliff top habitat' - this wouldn't affect Gypsy Buttress anyway - the vegetation looks to me much the same as it is in every other wood in the area, and yes I have been in most of them (in my youth). The gist from the signs at Roche Abbey is that it's a geological restriction, damaging the rocks, changing Ph and that. Even though it isn't the climbers littering the place, I basically don't want the landowner to use blanket SSSI restirctions as an excuse for half cocked liability concerns.
But if the geological restrictions are legitimate, I'm more than happy for a chalk ban, as it's a pump crag for me now. That might make climbing hard core Craig David up problems (even more) difficult for you guys but apart from The Noose and the new heel toe roof thing, I think I've already done everything I can do there...

 

[Paz]

"• Liability: we aren't aware any of climbers taking on a case against a landowner and certainly not successfully prosecuting a landowner."

Someone had a bad accident at Hazard Quarry in Devon when a bolt failed and sued the land owner and got climbing there banned. A Planetfear article stated it opinion "that victimising those in the climbing community who do sue is not the answer". Personally, even though I know they might be badly hurt, I think that's precisely what's required (self policing) to demonstrate to land owners that we think that sort of courtroom culture bullshit's not on.

 

[Bonjoy]

Seeing as Roche Abbey is made of Magnesium Carbonate, I doubt a little dropped chalk would change the pH.
Craig David is far from your average bolted choss hole as far as significance, quality and potential go. The BMC rightly wishes to save it's efforts for the most important cases. From a boulderers perspective, this is just such a case. The BMC pay lip service to being all inclusive and considering all facets of climbing to be of import, this would be a great way for them to demonstrate that worthy sentiments are backed by a willingness to fight our corner. CD is too good a crag for a bunch of total amatures to wade in and potentially fuck things up more than they already are.

 

[cofe]

i couldn't be bothered to read paz's posts, however an update:

john coefield says that after writing to the bmc earlier this week they are now on the case looking into access for this place. lets cross some fingers. bo selecta.

 

[Johnny Brown]

Mad Props to The Coff.