Access issues at Coquibus -- Big Island

[ali k]

Jwi’s numbers are based on his circumstances so make sense to him, not the UK certainly.

But clearly there’s a sliding scale, from someone with a fiat doblo and a mattress they’ve scrounged chucked in the back sleeping in it full time, to a massive winnebago parked on a driveway 51 weeks of the year.

But most people seem to be somewhere in the middle buying a van as their second vehicle for £10-20k, spending more £££ or DIY time to convert it. So it needs to be used a fair bit over consecutive years to break even over using hotels/rental cottages, which just isn’t the case for a lot of people. Even most climbers if they’re being honest probably.

[Obviously there’s more than just financial reasons for having a van]

 

[Paul B]

But most people seem to be somewhere in the middle buying a van as their second vehicle for £10-20k, spending more £££ or DIY time to convert it. So it needs to be used a fair bit over consecutive years to break even over using hotels/rental cottages, which just isn’t the case for a lot of people. Even most climbers if they’re being honest probably.

That only holds up if they depreciate wildly, which they don't.

 

[sxrxg]

I agree with this that depreciation is the key. For me owning a van is more of a cashflow thing rather than the cost. First van i bought for £5000 and sold after 3 years for £4500 (yes it was vintage!). It had some servicing and insurance costs as well however it did us 3 family holidays around Scotland for 10+ days each year and various other weekends based upon this i actually believe it has been decent value. We have now upgraded to a newer van that costs considerably more, this was designed and built to our specificfication by a family friend at very good rates (setting up a conversion business and wanted to build up their portfolio) and could probably be sold for more than it cost us to build (a very fortunate situation that we were lucky enough to be able to take advantage of), again this is purely a cash flow thing for us and with current intrest rates i have no issue having the van on the drive instead of cash in the bank. If you do not have the cashflow then i fully agree that the £10/20/30k (delete as appropraite) is a lot of accomodation fees, I woudl say though that you lose out on the ability to be flexible with weather/dates and for us and our situation with a busy family life this is invaluable to us actually getting into the outdoors regularly.

 

[ali k]

Paul - could your view be biased by having had two very positive experiences selling on vans (one in the US after a road trip)?

On the flip side I know several people who’ve bought vans and either had no end of trouble with them before they died, or spent a lot of time and money converting before selling on at considerable loss.

 

[spidermonkey09]

Paul - could your view be biased by having had two very positive experiences selling on vans (one in the US after a road trip)?

On the flip side I know several people who’ve bought vans and either had no end of trouble with them before they died, or spent a lot of time and money converting before selling on at considerable loss.

And presumably doing some work on them yourself because you're handy/mechanically minded?

I've had one small van which I enjoyed having but it cost me a fortune mechanically. Obviously no way of knowing if another car would have been better but it would have struggled to be worse! It probabaly paid for itself because i had a 3 month trip to Spain in it. theres no way it would have been worth it if I'd only done UK trips I don't think. But it was fun having it.

 

[jwi]

Jwi’s numbers are based on his circumstances so make sense to him, not the UK certainly.

Right now it is a moot point as there is no way to get a camper in and out of Barcelona on weekdays between 7am and 8pm without risking hefty fines for driving a poluting car. (It seems like a lof our neighbours with their big SUVs just pay the fines) But generally in bigger cities in much of continental europe you have to pay for parking, it is not provided for by the taxpayers.

If vans did not depreciate in value you would be able to rent them or lease them for free as surely the rental company would be able to sell them on without losses after a few years. However the opposite seems to be true. I looked into van rental just to make sure that my calculations were reasonable, and lo-and-behold! the rental companies seem to have quite a lot of costs owning vans compared to other expensive cars.

 

[petejh]

Urban and rural populations have very different costs of living and constraints on property ownership. I live in the countryside with offroad parking. I don't need to, and have zero desire to, live in a town or city. If I did live in an urban area my outlook on vehicle expenses would be more in line with jwi's.

Also 2 different types of van being discussed here - the cheaper, tatty, 10+yrs old van and the pricier, plusher, ~5yrs old or less van.
Former: relatively pricey to run and maintain, higher depreciation, possibly a false economy (being outside the sweetspot of a throwaway cheap banger)
The latter: cheaper to run and maintain, better depreciation (at the moment).

I have a 2017 medium van with a decent conversion, bought in 2020 for £13750, I could sell it now for not much less. Not outrageous cost to run, it has decent mpg compared to older vans, I use it as my only vehicle. Still pricier than only having a cheap small car, but owning it allows me the flexibility to go wherever I want, whenever I want, and not need to book accom. Which (to me) is worth a lot in non-monetary terms (plus a bit in monetary terms).

The error for me is 'rationality = numbers on a spreadsheet'. The numbers on the spreadsheet still have to be sensible within reason, but within reason doesn't equal 'the most efficient method purely on cost'. To me rationality = happiness, flexibility, owning things I like owning, affordable. But the numbers are totally different for me in rural Wales than for jwi in a city.

 

[abarro81]

Yeah, having a van is surely mostly about flexibility of accommodation rather than anything else. In my experience booking cheap places to stay at short-notice in popular climbing areas can be quite tricky at the wrong time of year... and if you book a cheap long stay you're locked in if the weather turns. Financially it surely depends a chunk on where you are going as well as where you live - in some areas I get the impression it's now hard to get away without staying in a campsite.

 

[SA Chris]

Yep, we had too many terrible nights' sleep in crap expensive bnbs on weekends away as they were the only thing available near the remote spots where we wanted to climb / surf / ski / winter climb / mtb before getting a van. We bought it new and paid for a conversion and it's been pretty reliable and inexpensive to run for the last 17 years, although we have just had an inevitable jump in repair bills. And thenew LEZ is going to make getting to the beach to surf an annoyance (going from 20 minutes drive to about 30) but not enough to bin it.

 

[andy moles]

I've had four small/medium vans, which I've bought for <£4k and spent ~£1k converting myself (nothing fancy - insulation and carpeting, bed and storage, LED lights and gas stove, comfy enough). All already fairly old for that cost obviously, and it's hard to know whether it would have been cheaper in the long run to buy a newer van (probably, but I couldn't afford it). Has always been my only vehicle and I've spent on average probably 60-80 nights in it per year, between work and personal trips. Just one example obviously, but in my circumstances vanning is definitely the cheap and adaptable way to go climbing somewhere (short of going totally shoestring and hitching with a tent).

 

[stone]

I suspect this will get me hated but...... I'm always puzzled by how all these various infringements (stashing pads, music, lamping etc) are viewed so harshly whilst dogs at climbing venues seem to be beyond reproach.

There is very good evidence of the impact of dogs on many types of wildlife (even when on lead). In Taiwan dogs are excluded from 20% of the Island so as to protect wildlife.

No everyone loves having their lunch slobbered over etc either.

 

[spidermonkey09]

I suspect this will get me hated but...... I'm always puzzled by how all these various infringements (stashing pads, music, lamping etc) are viewed so harshly whilst dogs at climbing venues seem to be beyond reproach.

There is very good evidence of the impact of dogs on many types of wildlife (even when on lead). In Taiwan dogs are excluded from 20% of the Island so as to protect wildlife.

No everyone loves having their lunch slobbered over etc either.

I think that's very far from the truth. There are loads of crags dogs aren't allowed (moorland crags etc) and there are numerous threads detailing and moaning about shit dog behaviour at crags and rightly so.

Not sure what you're advocating for wrt dogs and nature, banning them from national parks? Unless you're just bored and fishing, in which case congratulations on the bite! :fishing:

 

[stone]

Sorry I was unaware of the previous threads grumping about dogs.

I guess I just want to express my relative personal tolerance of lamping, pad stashing, music etc and intolerance of dogs at crags and nature reserves etc.

I realise that is a minority view.

Dogs that just quietly sit next to their owners are fine at crags though (so long as not in nature reserves).

 

[Paul B]

If vans did not depreciate in value you would be able to rent them or lease them for free as surely the rental company would be able to sell them on without losses after a few years. However the opposite seems to be true. I looked into van rental just to make sure that my calculations were reasonable, and lo-and-behold! the rental companies seem to have quite a lot of costs owning vans compared to other expensive cars.

I think we're perhaps talking at odds here; try buying a T4-6 side conversion with a pop top in the UK. They command and retain strong money.

Paul - could your view be biased by having had two very positive experiences selling on vans (one in the US after a road trip)?

And presumably doing some work on them yourself because you're handy/mechanically minded?

I did very little work to the T4, in fact I sourced it and left within a week I believe. The owner used it to go to Le Mans every year (and they were leaving the UK to work in Thailand so were selling everything they owned) and apart from having done a terrible job of insulating it (as he had a 240v hookup) it needed very little. What I did was remove what I could of the conversion and insulate where possible. I did have mechanical issues on the trip which related to an undersized battery and two failed CV joints, but it'd done something like 140k miles. You'd have those kinds of issues on any vehicle of that age/mileage IMO.

For the Ford, I converted it in the parking area of an Ikea/hardware store, and it was 'rudimentary' at best. I'd like to think the reason I didn't lose out here is because (as with everything) I planned very carefully. I was massively burnt out at the end of that trip BTW and it's taken several years to look back on a lot of the experiences (which included an awful lot of failure) positively.

I forgot a third one which perhaps does fall into the category of losing out. I bought a Caddy after the T4 as Nat got sick of commuting (Sheff > Leeds) with a kitchen rattling in the background. I converted it and lived in it for 3 months with what looked like a very OEM finish but didn't love the van itself (too small for my liking for UK weather where relying on 'outside' as being an extension of your living space is optimistic) and it had the issue with the DMF so I decided to sell.

I have a 2017 medium van with a decent conversion, bought in 2020 for £13750, I could sell it now for not much less. Not outrageous cost to run, it has decent mpg compared to older vans, I use it as my only vehicle. Still pricier than only having a cheap small car, but owning it allows me the flexibility to go wherever I want, whenever I want, and not need to book accom. Which (to me) is worth a lot in non-monetary terms (plus a bit in monetary terms).

The error for me is 'rationality = numbers on a spreadsheet'. The numbers on the spreadsheet still have to be sensible within reason, but within reason doesn't equal 'the most efficient method purely on cost'. To me rationality = happiness, flexibility, owning things I like owning, affordable. But the numbers are totally different for me in rural Wales than for jwi in a city.

This.

 

[duncan]

no poor and rational person stays in a van. I've done the math more than once. It's always cheaper to stay in budget hotels the first 100 days per year.

This is a questionable comparison.

Firstly, 100 nights in a hotel - how much are you calculating van expenses to be?!

Secondly, where's the nearest budget hotel with availability when you decide you want to go to a craggy place on a whim?

(not disagreeing with the general point that contemporary #vanlife has f*** all to do with living cheaply)

More a reply to the thread in general than you specifically Andy but, in my experience, a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms. The post -pandemic boom in van prices has only encouraged this, like boomers congratulating themselves on their financial acumen rather than acknowledging how lucky they got with property price inflation since the 1970s.

I am aware, and I’m sure jwi is too, that vanomics evaluations should include a benefit side of the equation and, for most, are not just an exercise in cost minimisation. For some, waking up in the middle of The Forest / next to Wast water / in the Siurana car park (?) counts as a benefit. Personally, I’d pay extra to sleep in a real bed and have a proper kitchen so I’m delighted that the numbers support my choice!

 

[petejh]

...
a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms. The post -pandemic boom in van prices has only encouraged this, like boomers congratulating themselves on their financial acumen rather than acknowledging how lucky they got with property price inflation since the 1970s.

No doubt - people are wise in hindsight. But you can only play with the hand you're dealt and the numbers are what they are. You'd be as incorrect to make a case that desirable campervans currently suffer high depreciation (they don't), as you'd be to make a case that house prices haven't inflated versus earnings (they have). The reasons for, and predictability of, the numbers is a different matter!

 

[Yossarian]

I was interested in this tread because of whatever it was about originally which I can’t really work out. But it sounds like whatever it is isn’t going to stop me and the kids having a look at La Nuit in 3 weeks time?

Re the van thing. I have a friend who tried to argue the financial argument after spending £55,000 on a VW California.

The idea of a van is very attractive for climbing in the UK though. I’ve largely given up doing camping weekends away from the SE because it’s so much faff, but every time we look at Airbnbs, etc for a couple of nights in N Wales, Yorkshire, etc it’s always insanely expensive.

For anything longer than a couple of days it rapidly becomes far cheaper to go to Font.

 

[SA Chris]

More a reply to the thread in general than you specifically Andy but, in my experience, a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms. The post -pandemic boom in van prices has only encouraged this, like boomers congratulating themselves on their financial acumen rather than acknowledging how lucky they got with property price inflation since the 1970s.

Confirmation bias runs strong here too.

 

[James Malloch]

I’ve had 2 vans. One was about a grand and I spent a few hundred on a shitty bed and battery. We used it loads and it was well worth it. Never had any major problems with it.

Current van is way way more expensive. We used it for a 9 month trip so it was worth getting something we wanted and would be happy with. Now it isn’t getting used much, but we have had a lot of experiences which we wouldn’t have had without the van.

Even little things like a day at the beach last weekend. Being able to be comfy, have everything you need and having it all ready to go makes us do more than we would without it.

It wouldn’t be worth it financially right now, but it’s a great thing to have in our current financial situation. I wouldn’t sell it anytime soon and I would rather have that money in a depreciating asset that I can enjoy rather than paying a bit less on my mortgage each month.

 

[andy moles]

More a reply to the thread in general than you specifically Andy but, in my experience, a lot of van owners do attempt to rationalise their purchase in purely financial terms.

I wouldn't rationalise it in purely financial terms myself - it's something which allows me to have a certain lifestyle affordably. It facilitates a pretty good balance between my wants and my budget.

For several months one year I had a car instead of a van. I never calculated how much the accommodation costs offset the fuel savings, but it was a pain in the arse.