[philo]

give it a rest slope

[fatdoc]

Hi John

I usually don’t get involved with forum discussions but you seem to have stirred up a lively debate with this one and a few people have pointed your post out to me.

For my part, it’s important to remember that the BMC exists to protect the freedoms and promote the interests of climbers, hill walkers and mountaineers whatever their favoured facets of these activities  - and amongst these I include boulderers, sport and trad climbers, DWS, competition climbers, wall users, ice-climbers, mountaineers, hillwalkers etc.  One way the BMC can do this is by having the ear of those in power. Hence the reception for the BMC at No 10.

Mick in a strong supporter of the BMC and is also heavily involved in the new web-based media.  Hence his invite.

Let the debate continue.  It’s a healthy sign.




Hope the climbing’s going well

All the best, nick

is thus biased, viewing to line his own pocket, and NOT an element to be trusted with the monies of the BMC or HMG...

I mean for God's sake Mr Colton... he's actually got banned off a non profit making bouldering forum than normally regulates itself!!! and you then get him entwined with the future relationships of the whole sport / pastime at the highest level with government?

Good choice, not.

[Sloper]

give it a rest slope

Give what a rest?

[SA Chris]

Your continuous tory boy waffle. It's fucking tedious.

[Norton Sharley]

Putting aside all prejudices and cynicism regarding the benefit or not of any climbers attending number 10, I can think of a whole load of people who I would rather not represent British climbing in any way than Alan James and Mick Ryan.  Some of them post on this forum.  Quite recently in fact.

Whilst Mick Ryan would definately not be my first choice of representative he is preferable to some of the other people who will no doubt be there or who have 'represented' 'us' in the past, e.g. Chris Bonnington.

imho the BMC do a better job of representation than some other qusi-independant British sporting bodies, e.g. BASI, CTC

What do you think is going to come out of the  meeting anyway?  Sweet FA, political pontification, or massive grants to retro bolt all British rock.  hmmmm..... 

[Baron]

Is the proposed list of people to be invited available anywhere? I would like to see it on the BMC website, out of curiosity really.

[Sloper]

Whether people like my politics or not the reality of the current situation is that there's only one show in town and anyone seeking to garner political influence or impact on public policy needs to be in the front row of the show and not sitting in an empty theatre watching a tired old hack dying a death while some tumble weed blows by. 

I would have said the same about the Labour party in the years 1992 - 2001, its not about party politics its about political reality and if the BMC misses the opportunity now to get a seat at the table then that's a golden opportunity missed.

[Moo]

I've just read through this whole thread and frankly i think it's quite embarrassing. People are throwing opinions about regarding mick ryans involvement with little or no background knowledge other than that which they can gleam from faceless interenet forums. Ok mick can play the wind up merchant no one can deny that but comparing him to hitler and the anti christ is out of order and completely unnecesary. 

Punter away but I'll stand by what I've said

[GCW]

Moo, you're probably right, and I ain't going to punter you for an opinion.

Like I said before, I personally dislike Mick's web persona.  It hasn't helped that he sent me offensive e-mails after I complained (on the UKC complaints page) about his personal attack on Bubba in a UKC thread.  That to me is low, very unsporting.
I have never met Mick in person, but from what I have heard he's a nice guy.  So why does he stir the shit?  Why does he give abuse to UKB and its members?

I'm sorry that I form an opinion based on an internet persona.

However, UKC is a commercial site.  Mick posts his often vehement opinions there, using a UKC log in.  Does this mean UKC fully supports his views at all times? 

Personally, if I was part of a company representing climbing I would make an effort to avoid slander and generally underhand tactics.  If I worked for Halifax and posted on the official Halifax website under my official Halifax name saying "Alliance and Leicester are a bunch of thieving cunts" I'd expect a P45 in the next post.  So why not on UKC.

I can only assume it's because UKC supports ALL of Mick's comments.

In which case UKC is a poor representation of UK climbing/mountaineering too.

Or is my logic flawed?

[Sloper]

The phot opportunity Brown etc will be seeking is with the likes of Andy Cave, Joe Simpson and the like as they're the ones that the pr people can attach a strap line to.  I'd lay good money against MR actually meeting anyone more important than the waiter.

[Moo]

obviously i can't answer those questions for mick and I would agree that there is a certain amount of ambiguity attached to micks postings when it comes to whether or not he has UKC backing. I would say however that UKC does generally state its opinions clearly often on the news page and otherwise i just treat posts by the moderators as being from members of the forum.

[GCW]

I'm sorry Moo, but I disagree there. My opinion is thus: If you post on a UKC, BMC etc log in you are representing that consortium.  If you post offensive comments on a UKC/BMC log in, you reflect badly on UKC/BMC.

It's a matter of integrity.  And certain people have failed that test 

[Moo]

we'll have to agree to disagree in that case if jack gerald posts on a thread as far as i'm concerned its coming from him unless stated otherwise.

[granticus]

Just read the BMCs press release and from what I can gather it is simply a tea party with the PM to celebrate 'mountaineering'.  There won't be any debate, it will all be very pleasant and isn't mountaineering great etc...

As soon as everyone's gone Gordon will be saying thank f*** that's over, what a bunch of smelly beardy Ron Hill wearing weirdos.  Mick will get to shake his hand once in a 'lineup' and the conversation will be this:
'How do you do' - 'How do you do'.

Gordon will forget who everyone was and everything that has been said.  The BMC will do a press release saying something like 'PM thinks mountaineering is great.'... 'it's so healthy, it's good for the local economy and great for kids etc..'

All in all it will be a wonderful day for climbing and as a result Gordon will personally ensure that Vixen Tor will once again be open to the public.

Let them go and have their moment.  I suspect it's not as bigger deal as it's being made out to be.  All the political work, representation and happens elsewhere, not at a tea party with the PM. It is what it is.....

According to                              Sloper... it's all a waste of time anyway because the wrong lot are being approached... get yerself to the Tory party conference where all kinds of influence can be swayed.

[nik at work]

I agree with GCW on this again.

If Jack/Alan/Mick want to post their personal opinions then they should have non-affiliated personas. If when you post the heading is:
Mick Ryan - UKC
then the posting is seen as coming from UKC. GCW's Halifax analogy is a good one. UKC is Mick at work so he should behave professionaly, sadly he often doesn't.

I often hear that Mick is a great bloke, I don't doubt that he could be, and I certainly don't know him to comment.

[Sloper]

Just read the BMCs press release and from what I can gather it is simply a tea party with the PM to celebrate 'mountaineering'.  There won't be any debate, it will all be very pleasant and isn't mountaineering great etc...

As soon as everyone's gone Gordon will be saying thank f*** that's over, what a bunch of smelly beardy Ron Hill wearing weirdos.  Mick will get to shake his hand once in a 'lineup' and the conversation will be this:
'How do you do' - 'How do you do'.

Gordon will forget who everyone was and everything that has been said.  The BMC will do a press release saying something like 'PM thinks mountaineering is great.'... 'it's so healthy, it's good for the local economy and great for kids etc..'

All in all it will be a wonderful day for climbing and as a result Gordon will personally ensure that Vixen Tor will once again be open to the public.

Let them go and have their moment.  I suspect it's not as bigger deal as it's being made out to be.  All the political work, representation and happens elsewhere, not at a tea party with the PM. It is what it is.....

According to                              Sloper... it's all a waste of time anyway because the wrong lot are being approached... get yerself to the Tory party conference where all kinds of influence can be swayed.

So why do you Companies and other organisations seeking to lobby government host drinks receptions at party conferences, errrr, please enlighten us with your wisdom.

From memory The BMC has hosted drinks receptions (or something similar) at Labour Party conferences and while Labour were in power (rather than merely being in office) I had no issue with this, however its time for the BMC, as virtually everyone else has, to recognise that things have changed and its time to move on.

This isn't about party politics its about politics in short act like a parasite and attach yourself to a nice healthy host rather than a dessicated old husk.

For all the wit and liberal application of yawning symbols this merely indicates a lack of knowledge about lobbying, politics etc, sorry to be blunt but the BMC should be beyond politics and seek to act with the government to secure our interests regardless of the political stance / party of the government.

Of course the BMC should go along and put on a good show. but lets not labour under any illusion, the real work will be done in the Autumn at party conferences.

[jern]

maybe the BMC sees lobbying the Tories as flogging a dead horse. The core tory vote would love to be able close off its land to disgusting proles like ourselves (and have the right to shoot  those who transgress)

[slackline]

maybe the BMC sees lobbying the Tories as flogging a dead horse. The core tory vote would love to be able close off its land to disgusting proles like ourselves (and have the right to shoot  those who transgress)

When did an invitation become lobbying?   

[jern]

replying to Sloper's comments above

[Sloper]

I do hope the BMC takes a slightly more mature view.

[AndyR]

For all the wit and liberal application of yawning symbols this merely indicates a lack of knowledge about lobbying, politics etc, sorry to be blunt but the BMC should be beyond politics and seek to act with the government to secure our interests regardless of the political stance / party of the government.

Let's be honest, if you ever want to *really* see something change, then you'd be much better getting the ear of the senior civil servants - Yes Minister is even truer now than it was 20 years ago......

[JohnBoy]

Hi Nick

No question regarding your first point, the BMC represent climbers and interface with government and other bodies to protect and promote our interests, as such the No 10 gig seems OK with me. Please disregard my ill thought out snipe about climbers and politicians.

'Mick is involved in the new web-based media'. This is where it's starting to sound alarm bells, how does his support of the BMC sit with his commercial side of generating advertising revenue for the UKC, is it a commercial convenience or a genuine support ?

If he was a gear manufacturer or just a guide book writer I don't think I would feel the same. Think back over the last  year or so and look at some of the legislation that has come about by the media whipping up a frenzy and the government being caught on the back foot and reacting with ill thought out and poor legislation. The media tail wagging the policy making dog, it's not funny and it's not democratic. Your invitation will be open to his own interpretation, it will add to his authority.

Ninety percent of the people I climb with don't do forums, a large majority of them are BMC members either via clubs or individual membership. They're not radical dude's, they get out at weekends and evenings, climb in their holidays and  have done so all their life.

How do the BMC weigh up representation issues between a largely silent but conservative(with a small c) majority compared to a small, vocal, media led minority.

What I'm saying Nick is that from my perspective this doesn't look great, I would hate to see the BMC being slam dunked  into ill advised action by a UKC led frenzy. I get the feeling the magazines are afraid of the UKC, I'd hate to think the  BMC were going in the same direction. I'd like to see some clear water between the BMC and 'the new web-based media'.

It is a debate and on UKB, it's not moderated - that's healthy.

Cheers
John

PS Climbing is still good, never enough time tho'.

[GCW]

Mick,
Thanks for the interesting e-mails.
Please specify which of my comments is a lie and I'll be happy to apologise here.
Regards.

[nik at work]

Let's be honest, if you ever want to *really* see something change, then you'd be much better making a shit load of cash in business while developing a media profile then demanding change at the same time as "requesting" your knighthood in the standard fashion (envelope full of fifties is the norm I believe)

[AndyR]

Let's be honest, if you ever want to *really* see something change, then you'd be much better making a shit load of cash in business while developing a media profile then demanding change at the same time as "requesting" your knighthood in the standard fashion (envelope full of fifties is the norm I believe)

I believe that approach works as well!