[Bonjoy]

On my list problems are graded for a boulderer of approximately average height and reach (yes, I know in reality it’s often a far less exact science that this). Where new problems have only received ascents by climbers significantly taller than average and the above criteria can’t (yet) be met I have given the grade as proposed by the first ascentionist and where appropriate included a # symbol to indicate that the grade may be higher for the climber of average height.
I hope this isn’t seen as dismissive of tall peoples ascents, because it isn’t. I just thought it a useful piece of information for climbers to have. It also provides another challenge for boulders in a time when new lines are scarce. Without indicators like these it is easy for a problem to get neglected as impossible for those of average height, or at least impossible at the given grade. To recognize that the grade is still essentially unsettled, there remains an incentive for people to go out and bag the grade confirming first non-tall ascent.
A good example of this is Lankaster Bomber at Froggat. This is a line I was trying but never succeeded on. For me it required a very hard dynamic move for a positive but very small edge. I reckoned it would go at 7c+. In the end Kim T turned up and did it in a few goes at 7b (for him), as he was able to reach the edge static by standing on tip-toes off a large foothold. Kim duly shrugged and gave it 7b, he could hardly have said 7c+ when he had no idea how hard it was for anyone else. Clearly this grade is meaningless for me. Odds on as a 7b it will see few ascents and be written off as ludicrously reachy. Indeed at 7b it is reachy, but at 7c+ it isn’t, if you see what I mean. The move for me felt like it would be a good one so I hope it does eventually see an ascent by a short-arse and that it then gets a sensible re-grade. The same is true of Opposition, the little groove behind Lowrider. Good moves but dismissed as an impossible reach due to the crazy low grade.
Here’s a list of the probs I have given the # symbol on my list. If anyone knows of any of these being repeated by a mr/mrs average stature (this does not include average height people with huge ape indexes), please let me know and I’ll remove the symbol and change the grade (if needed). Likewise if there are any I might have missed
•   Kim’s Slap 7b+ – Rowtor
•   Crimpy Sitter on Raw Deal block since hold broke 7c – Rowtor
•   Slap Bass Odyssey 7b – RHS
•   Free Flight 7c+ - Eagle Tor
•   No Mercy 7c – Eagle Tor
•   Fall 7b+ - Eagle Tor
•   Spook 7a (line up west face, left of sharp arete) – Andle Stone
•   Work Hard 8a+ - Curbar
•   Lankaster Bomber 7b – Froggat
•   Orca 7c (new line left of Mother's Pride) – Mother’s Pet
•   Trellis since hold broke 7a+ - Burbage S
•   Intense 8a – Burb S
•   Born Snappy 7b+ - Plantation
•   Andy Brown’s Wall 7c+ - Plantation
•   Delusions Of Grandeur 7c (Adult's Only arete on its right side) – Plantation
•   Brad Pit SS 8? – Plantation
•   Ron’s Prob 7c – Buckstone
•   Opposition 7a+ - Stanage End
•   Solomon’s Seal 8a – High Neb
•   Kim Span 7a+ - Wharncliffe

[Somebody's Fool]

Isn't Free Flight a Ben Moon problem?  He's no giant.

I've done the move on Trellis to the good hold (the feebly trepidatious attempt at the next move we won't talk about.)

[Bonjoy]

Ben is borderline but i'd say he just about falls into the rather-tall bracket and has a fairly positive ape index I think.

I haven't tried Trellis pre or post breakage, but got the impression that the last move was affected by breakage.

[Paul B]

Isn't Free Flight a Ben Moon problem?  He's no giant.

Not ticked this but given it a good go and don't think its too morpho, requires a hart flutter symbol though as you slip and slide your way down the slope on failure.

[Bonjoy]

7c+ ok for that one then?

[Jaspersharpe]

Ben is borderline but i'd say he just about falls into the rather-tall bracket and has a fairly positive ape index I think.

Hmmm. Where is the line drawn then? I recall a previous discussion where 6 foot 2 was proposed as the line of lank. Ben is certainly not a lankster imo.

[Paul B]

7c+ ok for that one then?

I'd say so, got totally shot down by feel good on the same day...

[Bonjoy]

Ben is borderline but i'd say he just about falls into the rather-tall bracket and has a fairly positive ape index I think.

Hmmm. Where is the line drawn then? I recall a previous discussion where 6 foot 2 was proposed as the line of lank. Ben is certainly not a lankster imo.

I haven't measured Ben recently, my sight based view of his height might be wrong. Perhaps he was stood a bit closer than I thought.
 For the purposes of my list i have (convieniently) considered myself as of average height, based on roughly half the people I climb with being taller and half being shorter. I suppose as a boundary for the application of my # symbol Ben would be there or there abouts minimum height, perhaps he is below the bar, I'm open to suggestions. I think of the probs I've mentioned Free Flight, Trellis and Slap Bass Odysey are the shakiest examples, the others are much more clear cut.

[galpinos]

(Slightly off topic) Is this list on-line anywhere?

[Bonjoy]

It's not finished. Not sure what i'll do with it when it is. Might put it online, or maybe give to guide writer if there are any books in the offing

[Andy B]

On Trellis it's not the last move that is affected, but the move up to the horizontal crimp since the upper sidepull snapped.

[BenF]

It's not finished. Not sure what i'll do with it when it is.

Send it to r-man to store in his vault that houses the world wide list bank.  A bit like the world seed bank, but on more pages.

[fatdoc]

Ben is borderline but i'd say he just about falls into the rather-tall bracket and has a fairly positive ape index I think.

I haven't tried Trellis pre or post breakage, but got the impression that the last move was affected by breakage.

i've had play, but pre new BIG pad and post spacking of my foot.



I failed.




dismally



having said that it's not far off the best i can manage on a good day

[The Sausage]

What about Barry Sheene at Gardom's? I have briefly tried it but it seems desperate, even for a 6 footer with +ve ape index. Am I just being crap? (highly likely)

[monkey boy]

Barry sheene is definately harder if your shorter (not that i am)! I have heard a few people say they thought it was 7c+. I thought hard 7c but its swings and round abouts!

[andy popp]

I haven't measured Ben recently, my sight based view of his height might be wrong. Perhaps he was stood a bit closer than I thought.

This Ben Moon is small. Those Ben Moons are far away.

[BenF]

No Dougal...

[Johnny Brown]

this does not include average height people with huge ape indexes

Does this include me? I'm a mere 5' 8" but have a +5 ape index. It seems to be mainly in the shoulders so I have a big span but an average reach...

•   Slap Bass Odyssey 7b – RHS

Have done this I think, don't remember it being reachy.

•   Free Flight 7c+ - Eagle Tor

Would agree with Paul B, I think more hard than reachy. Like Striker though, I daresay height ain't no hindrance.

•   Spook 7a (line up west face, left of sharp arete) – Andle Stone

Have tried several times, can't reach anything hangable.

•   Trellis since hold broke 7a+ - Burbage S

Failed on since hold broke, felt like some cunning must work though.

•   Born Snappy 7b+ - Plantation

Can't reach starting holds.

•   Andy Brown’s Wall 7c+ - Plantation

I have been trying this for ten years, I'm sure I am capable but hasn't happened yet.

What about Barry Sheene at Gardom's

Definitely morpho but I've done it so you should be well capable. The roiginal is the superior problem mind.

[The Sausage]

What about Barry Sheene at Gardom's

Definitely morpho but I've done it so you should be well capable. The roiginal is the superior problem mind.

I presume you mean "China in Your Hands"? couldn't agree more. Not managed to stick the pirouette move, but have hovvered in some sort of equilibrium for what seemed like a second (probably less), before plummetting downwards.

[Bonjoy]

this does not include average height people with huge ape indexes

Does this include me? I'm a mere 5' 8" but have a +5 ape index. It seems to be mainly in the shoulders so I have a big span but an average reach...

•   Slap Bass Odyssey 7b – RHS

Have done this I think, don't remember it being reachy.

   Bear in mind all his weight is on the right (straight) leg. I'm sure I could do it, just not sure it would still be 7b.

+5 is a big +. It's problem dependant. On a big reach off an undercut (Barry Sheene or Opposition) it will have more effect than say a double dyno.
I've almost done Barry Sheene (fallen off matching edge) and think hard 7c is right (and before anyone pipes up, yes obviously the opinions of people who have not fallen off are worth more than mine).

[dave k]

I believe I did the 1st ascent of Fall. I am 5'9.5 - no positive ape index- I claim to be officially "not tall", since I found the crux move on Acid Drop nails (on lead), but my 5'10 mate (with +1 ape) found it piss. Not scientific I know!
Having said that it is a finger tips two handed catch for me, so anyone much shorter will find it impossible.

[abarro81]

•   Intense 8a – Burb S

What's the deal with this? Paul Smitton and Jon Clark have both got this logged as 7C on their 8a.nu cards... is that 7C if you can reach the holds from the floor do we think and 8a for shorties?

I think the average height is 5'10ish but not sure why i think this, just in my head from somewhere...

[dave k]

No Mercy- not done it, but have climbed to just below the top. I found a tricky , but not mega hard sequence through what I think is the reachy section. Hard , but climbable at 7c (could be 7c+, but I have little experience at that grade) Was on my tick list as 1st 7c+, but then heard talk of 7b+ and access issues, so havn`t been back. I might sneak and have another go and grab the 1st "non tall ascent!"

[dave]

Ron’s Prob 7c – Buckstone

has anyone actually done or tried it? everytime i look at it i'm more and more convinced it looks more like 8c than 7c. theres nigh-on no grips. unless the jugs on buckstone are used fairly intensivley for feet somehow. do we know ron has deffo done it, or is it one of those urban (/rural) myths? question?

[Jim]

after a quick measure by the wife I am 5.10 1/2 with a +1" ape so consider myself normal(ish) in stature anyway.

I have reached the starting holds on born snappy a few times by a series of bizarre knee bars and foot shuffles and some other weirdry I can't rememeber, adam you can definately reach em if I can, your just not trying hard enough. Anyway, I've pulled on a couple of time but always let go because its was slightly damp and the holds felt like they might snap off (clue in the name!?). Keep meaning to go back on it in good conditions.

China in your hands can be done by a better non-piroutting sequence by stepping accross and using heel-toe thing in break and releasing them in control. SF and bransby have done it like this and I was getting close.

Trellis- tried this with adam and bransby last year and we all got shut down, like he says, feels like some sort of cunningness needs to be employed but we didn't figure out what..

I think Greg has done work hard, doesn't strike me as been tall but has probably got a big reach. Whats your stats Greg?