[Bonjoy]

I don't think retroing obscure trad routes will reduce the popularity of good trad routes. the reality is that retroing oddball trad routes at sport crags will have no effect on trad routes at trad crags whatsoever.

I agree with your second statement but not your first. Retro say fifteen of the 'obscure' routes at Chee tor and they will become more popular. The neighbouring trad routes may get the same number of ascents (likely less as folk don't bother taking a rack) but their relative popularity will certainly be diminished, and over time they'll become ignored.

But I'm not advocating retroing obscure trad routes at Chee Tor. The only case for bolts at Chee Tor IMO is on routes such a Tequila, Boo etc which were always hard semi-sport routes. This will draw sport climbers to Chee Tor, more than it will draw trad climber off adjacent routes. I'm all for these routes being 'sportingly' bolted. In truth a lot of trad climbers daren't climb sportingly bolted routes so the popularity shift thing is going to be even less.

 In the case of Tequila the first bolt was placed very high as the climbing to gain it was not very hard, it has since shed holds and is now a totally different prospect.

Bottom line - treat unpopularity as an argument for retrobolting and in twenty/ thirty years time all peak limestone will be bolted. This is/was Bill Birch's vision and it looks more likely to me now than when he espoused it to me in '95.

That's just paranoid nonsense. There will always be enough people who love doing trad limestone (me included) that this will never get anywhere near happening. The fact that very little retro bolting has happened since '95 suggests to me that Birch was wrong

[Johnny Brown]

I'm not being paranoid, its the change in popularity that I see. On peak lime sport climbing is now far more popular than trad than it was in '95, and there are many more routes to go at.

The lack of popularity of lime trad (whether actual or relative  -I think both) is leading folk, in this thread, to ask whether less popular trad routes should be retroed, and the consensus (which I'm not at odds with) is heading this way. The alternative being to basically abandon these routes back to nature.

I don't see lime trad swinging back into fashion anytime soon, this trend will only continue. Right or wrong who knows, I'm sure the classics of Beeston and High tors will hold out a long while yet but I think its head in the sand to deny the future holds more bolts than the present. Hopefully we can keep a good mix of both.

[Johnny Brown]

Apologies for the tangent Matlock are sport folk - to get back on track here's an observation - a couple of years ago Thor's Cave was an unpopular trad venue with a couple of legacy aid lines - now its a great new-wave sport venue but the change started with some limited and justified retrobolting. The easier trad lines remain - a model for the future?

[Bonjoy]

Can't disagree with any of that. The trend is towards more sport climbing and less trad climbing on peak lime. This has as much to do with indoor apprenticeship and cheap foreign holidays as anything else. I'd love to see a trad renaissance on peak lime. I'm keen for some High Tor evening session this summer if you fancy

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

Anyone know what direction long tor and lorry park quarry face? as the ukc crag dbase doesnt list this. Also how are they like for seepage? reckon either of them will be dry this weekend? providing it isnt raining this weekend?



Cheers
tim

[slackline]

Anyone know what direction long tor and lorry park quarry face? as the ukc crag dbase doesnt list this. Also how are they like for seepage? reckon either of them will be dry this weekend? providing it isnt raining this weekend?

Cheers
tim

Clicking on the map links on UKC takes you to an OS overview of the area.  Assuming its orientated to the North then Long Tor apperas to be facing South West, whilst Lorry Park is the other side of the river facing west.

[Bonjoy]

The arrow on the map for Long Tor is pointing at a railway cutting on the wrong side of the river. LTQ is on the south side of the road/river and faces NE, between the words 'Cable' and 'Car' on map.

[Bonjoy]

There is roadside parking just beneath it.

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

thanks Bonjoy

[abarro81]

also, is turkey dip dry atm do y'all know?

[JC]

reckon either of them will be dry this weekend?

timb Long Tor was about 90% dry earlier this week, just a few small patches on Ruby and in the main break. But the boltest is do-able i think. Might be heading there myself tomorrow.   Lorry park will also be dry, but don't expect the routes to be clean! They don't get climbed anymore, and the bolts are probably shit. There is a lot of work to be done at the place at some point, i'm quite keen on cleaning up The Squealer, looks ace.

[JC]

also, is turkey dip dry atm do y'all know?

Yes its dry, but i should warn people that at the moment there is a possible access situation at Turkey Dip. Turned up at the crag last week to find some new 'No Climbing' signs there, one even fixed to the crag itself. I was well angry     Working on trying to get it sorted out,   you should be ok at the weekend i think. But if you do get told to leave then please do.  thx

[belperpete]

also, is turkey dip dry atm do y'all know?

Yeah it'sin pretty condition at the moment - allbutmaybe two routes do-able.
However, although it shouldn't be a problem at the weekend and evenings, people should be aware that,when Jon and I turned up there last Saturday,2 NO CLIMBING notices has been put up, one actually screwed to the rock face next to The Land that Time forgot. We've never seen anybody while at the crag and had no trouble at all. I've contacted access at BMC about it.
Don't forget, Long Tor in pretty good condition and High Tor perfect. Loads of good sport there.Jon and I are goingto clean and equip a simple approach route to the cave area, to avoid having to do the Skylight approach.

[belperpete]

Oops, sorry Jon you beat me top it!

[JC]

timb  sorry ignore my post on Long Tor. Just had an update, apparently the heavy downpours yesterday have made Long Tor quite wet again 

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

thats really unfortunate 

how much does it seep? if for example it was wet yesterday and had 2 days of dryness and windy conditions would you expect it to dry out somewhat or is it a leaky crag. Someone should hopepipe an industrial shitload of epoxy down the back of these limestone crags.  sure it wouldn't  knacker up the geology would it.     



cheers
tim

[belperpete]

I'd have thought it would be dry enough by Sunday in those conditions. It does have these annoying seepage points, but I wouldn't have thought it'd been that wet to keep it out of nick for long. Might be better to go for Turkey Dip or High Tor. Shouldn't be a problem finding stuff to do in the area. High Torquing has probably its' first ascent on Monday since Jon rebolted it last year. Wile e Coyote not been done this year yet and it's an awesome ***. Let's get these routes done - I want some pictures!

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

sounds interesting although im hoping to be working 7c-8a and my mate for sunday will be probably working 7a-7b so think that rules high tor out. Wile cayote would be a possible but isnt high torquing that new 8a+?

[belperpete]

No it's the old Malc Taylor route (7c+?) Would be a good combination, with Wile e Coyote for you two OR Pump ot the Squealies (7b+?) and Squeezing out Sparks (7c+?). That's not had a second ascent yet - go for it. You'll need to negotiate the first crappy bit of Skylight to get to the cave at the moment. A few medium sized friends (how big's your mate?) protect if you feel the need. There's a lovely bolt belay in the cave now. I'll keep my camera handy!

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

hmm could be interested. what's the bolting like on the sport routes at high tor. newish and sensibly spaced. or runout to fuk and rusty as hell?

cheers
Tim

[belperpete]

hmm could be interested. what's the bolting like on the sport routes at high tor. newish and sensibly spaced. or runout to fuk and rusty as hell?

cheers
Tim

:spank:Bloomin' heck Tim - you're a fussy one. No money back guarantees, but I can assure everybody that all the (re)bolting Jon's done is top class - 12mm's, friendly spacing, well positioned for clipping  and proper lower-offs, so you don't knacker your ropes coming down. On High Torqueing, the 4th? bolt iS virtually unclippable on the lead, but good for working the route and you don't really need it on the red-point, as the third ones virtually level with it (you'll see what I mean).The good thing about the area now is that, if the weather craps out on the exposed stuff, you can go to Turkey Dip. We've climbed there during last year's rubbish summer in pouring rain showers. The tops can get a bit of run-off, but it's mostly manageable.
All I ask is that you give us some feedback, as we're trying to get a bit of momentum going in the deep South!
Pete

[Tim Broughtonshaw]

Nipped to long tor on the sunday to check it out. Scared myself a little when i decided to try and get from the boltest buttress to the buttress furthest right by traversing along the mud/brambles/nettles at the base of the rock. a bit of a slip would have made for a interesting series of short falls. There is a interesting looking cave between the 2 i saw. was gonna check it out but i've seen to many horror films to fall for that one. The boltest and the 8a's looked good. but the entire crag was as wet as a very very wet thing, and as such looked less inspiring than im sure it is. Looking forward to getting on some of the routes when its dry.

Had a look at masson lees as well. which additionally was very wet. Has anyone else seen that project at the back of the crag under the rooves (which appears to start up a set of artificial holds? Will it actually go? or is it an aid line ?

Cheers
Tim

[belperpete]

Hi Tim. Yeah re Long Tor, the odd heavy rain bursts have caused problems this last week and continue to do so. Masson Lees was getting there last week, but yes has crapped out for a bit. Better weather after this weekend will rapidly improve things on those crags.I will keep updating condition info as quick as I can, but, as yet we're not getting enough people here to get an overview.
Some new info - been climbing on High Tor every day this week and missed most of the rain. We do seem to get a bit less rain down here in the South, though. Some new stuff there now - no seepage and brilliant climbing. A 6C+ warm up, a 7b'ish and a 7b+'ish. Pump out the Squealies in good condition, but Squeezing.. and Limelight too wet. Contrary to my my info about the approach route up Skylight - not needed now. You will not need to take trad gear at all. Wile e Coyote and High Torquing good condition too. High Torquing had only it's second ascent in the newly bolted state last week and was thought to be excellent by the climber. Get there!

[JC]

Tim  that thing at masson in the cave is a dry tooling route project! Pity about Long Tor for you, i reckon though that this weekend/next week it will be worth a look.

[Sloper]

Don't forget, Long Tor in pretty good condition and High Tor perfect. Loads of good sport there.Jon and I are goingto clean and equip a simple approach route to the cave area, to avoid having to do the Skylight approach.

I think I say you on it the other day, how wet did you get?

PS Isn't it a shame you virtually never see anyone on High Tor these days?