[saltbeef]

grumpycrumpy thanks for the input. nice one.
 
 

[GCW]

When I was a JHO (showing my age) we used to have ADHs (additional duty hours).  We were contracted to 60 hours plus 28 hours ADHs.  Once you'd worked past 60 hours, the ADH pay kicked in and you went to half pay (yeah, weird I know).  After you passed your 88 hours you weren't being payed.  We used to work 7am to 7pm every day (60 hours per week), plus on calls 1 in 4.  And our pay?  Pre-tax I got 18,000 quid.  Work that out as an hourly rate= £3.92 per hour.

So take yer whining elsewhere CrumpyGrumps.

[curly ben]

Dentistry is not all bad saltbeef.. i flirted with idea of doing maxfac surgery after a twelve month maxfac post at ches vegas.

 Fat Doc had some wise words actually during my time there. It came to crunch time for appyling for three yr medicine to continue my maxfac-surgical training (dual honours required)  and i could not face it. I was looking at least ten yrs more training and my bosses couldnt look me in the eye and tell me it was a job for life in the current climate.
 I was really physched fo facial surgery however the lack 'stability', for want of a better phrase, scared the hell out of me.

I finished my twelve month post ended up doing a part time locum staff grade job where i got paid nearly double for approx a third of the hours and then quit for good and high tailed it to costa rica for two months surfing. A definite CV 'killer' but I just got back a few weeks a go  and iv have never felt so good about a snap decision.

I know maxfac is slightly different but there is nothing wrong with becoming a mercenary in my opinion with the NHs as it is currently stands.

May well bump into you in oz? my girlfriend has not applied for ST position with a view to working over there in august... mulling on joining her.   

[Fatleg]

GCW hours have improved on paper - but I have recently done a 26 hour shift, due to rotas being under staffed ( probably due to all the UK graduates working in other parts of the world) and the sickness that results. And fatdoc is right, I know to stay in medicine I have to go into a speciality I don't really want to do - and my bosses are just bewildered as to what's going on. Good doctors for the first time ever are being left with choices that force them out of a chosen speciality or to leave medicine totally. Medical unemployment probably has to some extent already happened in the UK and will become more and more widespread in the future, so the government can force down wages.

[curly ben]

One of the main issues at the moment is morale.  A lot of people are pissed off because they get no respect and get mucked about all the time.  Goalposts change regularly, meaning noone is ever sure what is going on.  I'm not convinced this is accidental, or maybe I'm getting too cynical.  Ulterior motive says my guts.  I have a suspicion someone is attempting to disempower doctors- it's already happening with manager deciding what we do on operating lists (we have little say) or where someone is sent for surgery (this varies depending on waiting lists).

Bubba, these changes are a good way of pushing through new contracts for GPs/ consultants etc, and once you get there you won't have any choice but bend over.

Man this is so spot on... I am now an 'operator' not a surgeon

[curly ben]

i would recommend medicine cos its great fun. but you have to deal with this shit. so i'd fuck off to australia

my point exactly... and I've read his CV. Its top class.

will you read mine fatdoc? actually back at ches vegas next week for a month of earning some cash

[grumpycrumpy]

Sorry ..... I thought this thread started because Beef couldn't get a job in Sheffield ...... Must have totally misread what he wrote ...... 

[grumpycrumpy]

currently applying for st1 one jobs in the uk. thats 3rd year medicine to the lay person. anyway i've worked and trained in sheffield since 2001, and did my first degree here. anyway, i haven't been shortlisted, so i'll be moving in august. gutted. on a brighter note, liverpool and leeds have given me interviews and i passed my mrcp part 1 (postgraduate exam, witha 30% pass rate) their loss...

OOOH ...... Fuck my old boots , he did .....

[slackline]

currently applying for st1 one jobs in the uk. thats 3rd year medicine to the lay person. anyway i've worked and trained in sheffield since 2001, and did my first degree here. anyway, i haven't been shortlisted, so i'll be moving in august. gutted. on a brighter note, liverpool and leeds have given me interviews and i passed my mrcp part 1 (postgraduate exam, witha 30% pass rate) their loss...

OOOH ...... Fuck my old boots , he did .....

Yes but he wasn't whinging about poor renumeration/no overtime/having to work new years eve.

The only parallel between saltbeef and your moan is...

I live in Sheffield and the ONLY job that's come up in my line of work  in the last five years was deputy workshop manager at The Crucible

...and thats a very tenuous one at that, since I expect there are jobs for st1 in Sheffield, they're just not showing any loyalty to those who have been working there (at least thats the impression I've got from reading this thread.

And I spent three years training at college

Not quite the same as five years at Uni, and, again if you read this thread, continued on the job training working your way upwards is it?

You say you were banned from UKC, I wonder why 

[curly ben]

Grumpycrumpy . Saltbeef is obviously at the top of his game. He was put through a useless application system.. subsequently did not get shortlisted for the job he wanted and is quite rightly having a grumble about it. The title of the thread spells it out.. let the man whinge i say

[fatdoc]

currently applying for st1 one jobs in the uk. thats 3rd year medicine to the lay person. anyway i've worked and trained in sheffield since 2001, and did my first degree here. anyway, i haven't been shortlisted, so i'll be moving in august. gutted. on a brighter note, liverpool and leeds have given me interviews and i passed my mrcp part 1 (postgraduate exam, witha 30% pass rate) their loss...

OOOH ...... Fuck my old boots , he did .....

if it wasnt for this website owner moderating my last post you would be. That's the first time he's had to do that to one of my posts for 5 years!

Truly great to have you here.

[fatdoc]

Curly Ben,

i'll have look at yours whenever matey  Wondered where you'd gone... didnt know you surfed.. good choice dude!

[grumpycrumpy]

Firstly ..... Fatdoc ..... I'm not poor , I miss working in theatre < my choice of employment > , but now work in other areas of that business which involve me spending at least eight months a year away from Sheffield , the city in which I choose to live  , but which enables me to keep the wolf from the door ....
My point was , or at least the point I was trying to make , that sometimes you don't get to work where you choose .... Accept it , if you're good at your job you will always get employment , it may not be quite where  you want , but at least you've got a job .......
And yes I was banned from ukc , now waiting with baited breath to see if I get asked to quit here .......

[curly ben]

currently applying for st1 one jobs in the uk. thats 3rd year medicine to the lay person. anyway i've worked and trained in sheffield since 2001, and did my first degree here. anyway, i haven't been shortlisted, so i'll be moving in august. gutted. on a brighter note, liverpool and leeds have given me interviews and i passed my mrcp part 1 (postgraduate exam, witha 30% pass rate) their loss...

OOOH ...... Fuck my old boots , he did .....

if it wasnt for this website owner moderating my last post you would be. That's the first time he's had to do that to one of my posts for 5 years!

Truly great to have you here.

hahah i chopped my post in retrospect as i thought it may get moderated. Uh huh Aus is looking like a good choice for a year, bit of surf bit of climbing. Good mate from uni couldnt get surgical St post in london last year so jacked it in and went to new zealand for work.. he's applying for residence now! Problem is I guess they will get saturated with pommi dentists and docs down under?. Would be interesting to know how many junior docs are emmigrating from the system.
 I want to improve my spanish... then set up a killer practice at a dreamy surf village on the west coast of costa rica. aaaaahhhh. this place i have in mind even has a mini 'raven tor' by the beach.. untouched.+ scope for other crags as well. hhhmmm probably wouldnt get much work done tho what with getting tubed off my mammaries daily and crimping up virgin lime. A complete pipe dream at the mo as im broke!

[saltbeef]

grumpycrumpy, quite why i'm bothering to reply is beyond me. sheffield has a selection criteria based upon arbitary academic qualifications at med school, and not based on actual clinical skills. 2 points for a distinction at med school 4 for honours. in shef 11 people in a year of 180 got honours cf livrpool where 45% of the year get honours or nottingham where you get a bmedsci for doing nowt (in shef its an extra year) which you get 5 points for shows the inadequacy in this system. You get points for doing a "formal" education job but none for bedside teaching. Now since qualification I have done purely clinical jobs, a and e, cardiology, acute med etc. this was in the belief i would become a better clinician, (and yeah i think i'm ok.) I could've applied to an antomy demonstrating job or clinical research post and got the 500 words to write about my research, instead i got to leave this blank and fill in the 150wrds about clinical experience! not to be funny but i've attempted to raise my game through doing courses and audit in my own time (ALOT of my own time) but this has gained me no points on the mark scheme. last year it may well have done.
sorry mate but christ 160 hours in a month is not alot. I work hard, i do a stressful job and i get paid for it. I worked about 40 hours from last friday to sunday ie a weekend. I don't mind being at work, i enjoy it. My whinge is not about money, its because I didn't get shortlisted in sheffield yes, but its also because the system is not allowing people who are good to get shortlisted there, and that is a shame for both the doctors who want to work there and the patients who get treated.

[Fatleg]

Good plan Ben. I'd be on my way elsewhere if it wasn't for my better half having an ST post here. Grumpycrumpy is like the vast majority of people who really don't understand what HMG is doing to doctors training. The hospital where I work currently has at least three Eastern Europeans on my rota - and I wouldn't let them near my family. This is the future- more imported drs as British trainees won't accept non-training jobs, and will fuck off to a country or career which appreciates their skills.

[grumpycrumpy]

Apologies Saltbeef , I honestly don't understand the selection process that the NHS has implemented ...... And I do have a huge respect for what you've achieved , working a huge amount of hours in a very stressful job , and still managing to find the time to continue to train to further your career is pretty amazing   ..... I really wasn't trying to knock you , merely saying that I too would love a job in Sheff , but that cicumstances are against it , ie can't feed wife and two kids on £5.84 an hour .....

[curly ben]

My point was , or at least the point I was trying to make , that sometimes you don't get to work where you choose .... Accept it , if you're good at your job you will always get employment , it may not be quite where  you want , but at least you've got a job .......
And yes I was banned from ukc , now waiting with baited breath to see if I get asked to quit here .......
[/quote]

True dude... but i guess Salt beef is jus hacked off cause he has ticked all the boxes and more and is going to have to up sticks. Saltbeef touched on 'loyalty'. As a doc,  i think? its fair to say you stay loyal to the nhs.. a lot of shifts are covered, extra work done- because it has to be done. I think its fair to expect that back from your employer no? Historically you put in the hours to reap the rewards later on. This may have changed subtley... however there are still all sorts of things to busy your recreational hours as a doc with just to stay in the game.. eg audits .. presentations.. brick hard exams! He probably feels a little short changed by the system..  i know i  did 6 months a go. Maybe we (docs) are all being a bit selfish- i am not sure.. If you dont work in the system its maybe hard to understand  

[GCW]

GrumpyCrumpy:
Yeah, I agree that our Beefy originally posted about him not getting selected in one region and getting selected in others.
However, I'm sure many of us will agree that this is simply another sign of the failings, and indeed unfairness, of the system that has been implemented.
When you came along with:

Jesus , what a bunch of moaning minnies

and

Pay was a criminally low £5.84 an hour with no overtime till you'd worked 160 hours in that month

you sounded like you felt doctors overpaid, hence my post on previous earnings.  Even now I get £19 an hour for spending a lot of time in the hospital, performing emergency surgery at all hours, and generally trying to save life and limb.  I don't think that's being overpaid, but if you do then you are entitled to your opinion.  Bear in mind if I worked 9-5 my pro-rata would be £760, whereas the National Average is £498 per week for 2007.  Considering I sepent 5 years at University and have over 8 years experience I don't think that's too bad?

if you're good at your job you will always get employment

Here, you are wrong.  There's a large number of us that are coming to the end of research projects and higher degrees, which we have often paid for ourselves (often 20k for 36 months).  In the past (up until 2 years ago) these would pretty much guarantee a training job leading to a Consultant job.
Now the system has changed we are being told we have spent too long in the speciality, and get heavily penalised in our applications.  Effectively we are being told the past 3 years (and a lot of money and effort) were not only a waste of time, but detrimental to our careers.  We are now told we are extremely unlikely to get a training job.

You can see why people's fuses are short.  A lot of people have been royally fucked over.  Beef is getting into the system by his own merit, and good luck to him, so don't think I'm bitter about others getting in.  One of the ST3s I work with got the job 2 years post PRHO year, after 6 months in the speciality- he can't deal with a lot of things as he hasn't got the expereince, but it isn't his fault and he'll learn.  I'm glad someone managed to get through MTAS and get a number, and I hope he does well.

This is a touchy subject GrumpyCrumpy, so son't  be surprised if people get arsey when you say daft shit.  It's hard to comprehend the huge fuck up in training unless you are within it.

[fatdoc]

this discussion has been very very well balanced IMO. Most likely all the best points have by now been raised..

it's hard to convey so many issues via a forum.. though i still stand by my moderated swearing.... obviously close to my heart this issue of working and having a life in an area you want to live in..


Just to really sink the stake into the heart of all the health trainees here:

the weather will be good to climb or ride tomorrow... I use long term weather forecast to use up the last of my leave allowance this time every year.. you cant carry it over to the next financial year (or get it paid).. tomorrow I was not to work





Guess what, I'm going in. wont get it paid back - or 2 big high risk ops will go down...


you see, the managers will always have me by the knackers...

[GCW]

Really?  I'm off tomorrow afternoon and it's supposed to piss down 

[nik at work]

NHS is a fucking mess, glad I got out of medicine before I got into the NHS.

Nothing to add that hasn't been said, just good luck and hope it works out...

[grumpycrumpy]

Feel I've been slightly misunderstood ..... I was not , and never would , feel or say that doctors , surgeons or consultants are in any way underpaid ...... My point was that I live in Sheffield and the only job that has come up in my field of expertise I could not afford to take because it paid a wage that I couldn't live on ..... Consequently , I've protistuted my talents working in the corporate side of the business .....
On the plus side I haven't to go into work all this week , and have thus spent my time down the Burbage valley .....

[fatdoc]

respect.

good choice of week off.


and venue!

[Houdini]

If only you'd gone into Optometry Beef.  A friend of mine after 1 year (+6 years training) was creaming 40K...